Author Topic: Blade not turning  (Read 2064 times)

Offline jims

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Blade not turning
« on: 06/08/17 15:05 UTC »
I've got an old Do-it SJ-4Y-A mold and made some 1/4 oz baits. 1 I made with willow leaf blades, #2 I think followed by a #3. The lead blade won't turn??!!! Any one got an idea why? spins freely on the wire, clevis is good,tubing isn't binding that I can see. All I can get is a wobble while retrieving it.

Offline Lamar

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Re: Blade not turning
« Reply #1 on: 06/08/17 15:29 UTC »
Pics ?
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Online smalljaw

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Re: Blade not turning
« Reply #2 on: 06/09/17 04:48 UTC »
It will be hard to diagnose without a picture but I think I can help. It is one of two issues, the first is that if your blade size you stated is accurate, well it will be hard to get a size 2 blade to spin on the clevis since it doesn't have enough force to swing the clevis completely around. I run a size 4 as the top blade, the one on the swivel and a 3.5 for the blade on the clevis, if I use a size 3 I have to reel it much faster to get the blade on the clevis to spin. The other issue might be that the blade is on wrong, the back side or cupped side is facing down rather than up. If you hold your spinnerbait by the line tie so that it is vertical with the hook bend pointing toward the ground, the blade on the clevis is hanging back and when you look at it the cupped, or back side, should be facing the blade on the swivel, if the finished side is facing the swivel you have the blade turned the wrong way.

Offline jims

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Re: Blade not turning
« Reply #3 on: 06/09/17 12:57 UTC »
I posted a pic in the gallery yesterday. I'm trying not to use big blades, might I be able to put a suspend strip on the back side of the lead blade for weight?

Offline Apdriver

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Re: Blade not turning
« Reply #4 on: 06/09/17 13:52 UTC »
I just took a look at your pic. Why don't you try adding another bead between the clevis and your plastic spacer. It may help as it will be a smoother transition for the clevis to spin against.

Offline jims

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Re: Blade not turning
« Reply #5 on: 06/09/17 14:37 UTC »
afraid the wire will break if I keep bending it, don't want a short armed one!

Offline efishnc

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Re: Blade not turning
« Reply #6 on: 06/09/17 18:04 UTC »
I just took a look at your pic. Why don't you try adding another bead between the clevis and your plastic spacer. It may help as it will be a smoother transition for the clevis to spin against.

I totally agree, this would be the FIRST thing I would suggest because your blade sizes and positioning seem fine otherwise... a second suggestion is that you might find opening up the clevis might help as it looks a little misshaped (which can either bind on the wire or require more force to turn the blade around the wider radius).

« Last Edit: 06/09/17 18:12 UTC by efishnc »

Online ctom

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Re: Blade not turning
« Reply #7 on: 06/09/17 19:10 UTC »
Maybe its an illusion but the cup of the small blade appears to me that its facing up towards the line tie. I think the blade would react to movement better with the cup facing down. I also think the addition of another bead between that clevis and the spacer tube would help things out a lot too.

Online smalljaw

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Re: Blade not turning
« Reply #8 on: 06/10/17 05:06 UTC »
Ctom, the cup is facing the right way, on a spinnerbait like that the cup has to face up, it works differently than an in-line spinner. Here is the issue, for starters the small bead you have under the clevis is fine, but you should have one above as well, they act as bearing to keep the clevis spinning free. The second problem is the blade is too small to spin that size clevis, a size 3 blade will work but it has to be retrieved at a really fast pace to get enough momentum to fully rotate. For that size 2 blade to work you would need that spinnerbait to be on .024" diameter wire with a size 1 clevis, I'd say .028" would work as well but that would be the largest diameter you could use and the reason is because of the clevis. A size 1 clevis has holes that are .030" in diameter so the wire has to be smaller in diameter for it to spin freely and it is obvious looking at your spinner that the clevis is too large, the blade doesn't catch enough water to spin that clevis around, think of it as a transmission slipping, the blade catches the water and starts to spin but the size of the clevis needs holds the blade back so instead of it spinning around the shaft, the blade "slips" and falls back behind and then it repeats. So what you get is the bottom blade wobbling but not turning, and I don't know what diameter wire you are using but I'll be it is at least .035" and you are proably using a size 3 clevis, if that is the case you won't get that small of a blade to spin, you need lighter wire and a size 1 clevis and adding weight to your spinner isn't going to help, you need a redesign. A size 3 blade with a size 2 clevis will work but again, you will need to drop to .031" diameter wire, you are using blades that sould be on a 1/8oz Crappie spinner on a 1/4oz bait using wire and hardware meant for blades 2 sizes larger, so you have to downsize the wire and hardware to make that work, sorry for the bad news.

Online ctom

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Re: Blade not turning
« Reply #9 on: 06/10/17 07:14 UTC »
Ctom, the cup is facing the right way, on a spinnerbait like that the cup has to face up....

When retrieved the drag created in forward movement will limit the lower blade's movement to pretty much within the clevis, not around the wire. At least no spinner bait I have does it while I am retrieving. Maybe spin would occur while free falling but drag holds the spinner [both by the way] rearward while retrieving. Perhaps the blade's cup can be hung in either manner, but as I read the op's question, he wants to know why the lower blade doesn't spin like the top one with the swivel, not around the wire, which drag prevents while retrieving. The clevis allows up and down movement during the retrieve which is limited by the confines of the clevis's loop and the wire shaft and if a spinning blade, like the top blade, is desired he's need to add a swivel in lieu of the clevis. A barrel swivel at that blade would be sufficient. Regardless of what is holding that lower blade, water pressure and drag will make the blade trail just like the top blade when retrieved, but it won't navigate around that wire unless the jig is free falling.

Online smalljaw

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Re: Blade not turning
« Reply #10 on: 06/10/17 11:41 UTC »
When retrieved the drag created in forward movement will limit the lower blade's movement to pretty much within the clevis, not around the wire. At least no spinner bait I have does it while I am retrieving. Maybe spin would occur while free falling but drag holds the spinner [both by the way] rearward while retrieving. Perhaps the blade's cup can be hung in either manner, but as I read the op's question, he wants to know why the lower blade doesn't spin like the top one with the swivel, not around the wire, which drag prevents while retrieving. The clevis allows up and down movement during the retrieve which is limited by the confines of the clevis's loop and the wire shaft and if a spinning blade, like the top blade, is desired he's need to add a swivel in lieu of the clevis. A barrel swivel at that blade would be sufficient. Regardless of what is holding that lower blade, water pressure and drag will make the blade trail just like the top blade when retrieved, but it won't navigate around that wire unless the jig is free falling.

I read the question differently than you, when I talk about the bottom blade spinning, I'm actually referring to the way the blade rotates around the blade arm on the clevis. When I built my first spinnerbait in 1998 I had the blade on the clevis wrong, the cup was facing down and the blade would not rotate around the blade arm so I learned it has to be facing up. Then around 2001-2002 I made a 1/4oz spinnerbait with a size 3.5 willow on the swivel and a size 3 on the clevis, I found out right quick that I had to reel it fast for the blade on the clevis to rotate, any slower than a burn would just make the blade rock back and forth. When I started getting decent at building spinnerbaits I learned that to use a blade smaller than a 3.5 I had to reduce the wire diameter and clevis size, the small willow blades catch very little water so it doesn't get enough push to force the larger clevis around the blade arm to fully rotate, but if he made that exact same bait on .028 with a size 1 clevis I would be dollars to donuts the blade would have no problem rotating around the blade arm. I guess it depends on how you look at it, I've been playing with these things since 98 and I've used every size wire from .041" down to .018" and I've used just about every blade out there and willow blades from size 2 up to a size 8. On a swivel there isn't any problem but when the blade has to spin the clevis the wire diameter, and clevis size are very important, to heavy of a wire diameter means you have to use a larger clevis which means you need a larger blade. The OP has what looks to be a size 3 clevis with a size 2 willow on .035" wire, the wire and clevis are fine but the size 2 willow is too small, the cup can't catch enough water to generate enough force to allow the blade to fully rotate and that is why it looks like it is rocking or wobbling, because it begins to rotate and then falls back. If he leaves the bait as is it can work but he will have to reel very fast but I'm not sure if he can go fast enough without it wanting to come out of the water. So the only solution is to drop wire size and clevis size, a size 3 clevis has a hole diameter of .045" so it works on any wire from .035" up to .041", a size 2 clevis has a hole diameter of .035" so it works on any wire from .024" up to .032", and a size 1 clevis has a hole diameter of .030" and will work on wire from .018 up to .029. You can use a size 2 clevis on wire that is .035" because of variances in the wire diameter but because it is so close to the hole diameter of the clevis it creates more friction so it will rotate at a slower speed, I learned that trying to use a smaller clevis on .035" wire.  I may be going overboard a little but it is because I have made the same mistake because I tend to use smaller blades than what mass produced spinnerbaits use, and for a 1/4oz spinnerbait on .031" wire I typically use a size 3.5 willow on the swivel and a size 3 willow on a size 2 clevis and it works, when I made the same bait with the same size blades on .035" wire and a size 3 clevis, I had to reel the bait at a pretty high speed in order for that blade on the clevis to rotate around because the blade doesn't catch much water at normal speeds. So he is using an even smaller size 2 blade but a size 3 clevis and .035" or .040" wire, it won't work unless he upsizes the blade or drops wire and clevis size.

Offline jims

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Re: Blade not turning
« Reply #11 on: 06/10/17 16:24 UTC »
First off, thanks to everyone for their comments and advice. I came here hoping for some help and got a masters class in lure building! I'm stuck right now with using whats on hand. I bought the wire forms 10/15 yrs ago but didn't get into making baits till recently. I've decided to just up size my blades for now. I put a 3.5 lead with a 4.5 trailer. we'll see how that works. As for the other parts, I've cannibalized lures I've found or old stuff I got laying  around.

Offline Lamar

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Re: Blade not turning
« Reply #12 on: 06/10/17 16:44 UTC »
  I think it's as simple as putting a bead between the plastic sleeve and the clevis. The one bead before the clevis you don't need. I would also take the loop at the end that holds your main blade and twist it around the wire frame. The way you have it it will slip off when fighting a fish. That has nothing to do with the spin though.
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Online smalljaw

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Re: Blade not turning
« Reply #13 on: 06/11/17 07:42 UTC »
  I think it's as simple as putting a bead between the plastic sleeve and the clevis. The one bead before the clevis you don't need. I would also take the loop at the end that holds your main blade and twist it around the wire frame. The way you have it it will slip off when fighting a fish. That has nothing to do with the spin though.

You are partially right Lamar, a bead above the clevis is needed but it still won't make the blade spin or rotate, whatever terminology you prefer. I don't mean to sound arrogant or anything but I've been right were he is at before and while the bead will help it won't solve the issue. His wire is too heavy and the clevis is too large for the size blades he is running. If he straightens the wire he can  disassemble the bait, and add a size 3.5 blade to the clevis, and then a bead above the clevis and he spacer and then switch the blade on the swivel to a size 4, that will make the bait work perfectly. If he wants the smaller blades the only way it will work is to downsize the wire and the clevis because the small blade size on that size clevis doesn't have enough mass to make the larger clevis completely rotate around the blade arm. A size 3 will probably work but the bait would need to be retrieved at a really fast pace to get enough momentum to get the clevis to fully rotate. Remember, the water is pushing the blade and clevis back, the cup in the blade catches the water and as a result it lifts the blade up which pulls the clevis along with it. The smaller blade catches the water as I described but because it doesn't catch as much water it doesn't lift as high or as fast so it doesn't have enough force or inertia to pull the larger clevis around the blade arm, but if the clevis was smaller, a size 1 would be needed, then it would work but for the smaller clevis to work it would need to be on a smaller wire diameter since the holes on a size 1 clevis are .030" in diameter so the wire would have to be .029" or smaller. I'm not trying to dismiss anyone or start an argument but as I've said before, I made the exact same mistake when I made my first small spinnerbait, I used .035 wire and a size 3 clevis with a size 3 blade, and while the blade would spin I had to reel it extremely fast for it to work. I then dropped the wire diameter and the clevis size and then it worked perfect and after all these years of tinkering with spinnerbaits, my favorite bait, I finally have figured out how to manipulate them to make the bait run the way I want like slow rolling, burning, more vibration, less vibration, etc. I also want the OP to understand that if he makes 1 small change to his bait that it still won't work correctly and since the wire forms are older it is safe to assume they are at least .035 or .040 and because the wire size isn't going to be changed then the only thing he can do is change the blade size at least to a 3.5 and a 4. I rather make this point multiple times and have the OP realize there isn't anyway other than increase the blade size to make this work rather than banging his head off a wall trying to have it work with small incremental changes. It can work if you pour the head with .029" wire and a size 1 clevis but other than that with the bait you have there it will only work with bigger blades, a 3.5 and a 4, any smaller on the clevis and you'll have the same issue. I apologize for the rant, I wouldn't be saying that over and over if I didn't make the exact same mistake many years ago, so this hits home for me but you are spot on when you mention that bead above the clevis. As for the bead below the clevis, I always add one there myself and the reason is that when you are fighting a decent size fish, a violent head shake is all it takes to wedge the clevis on the "R" bend, I've had that happen and getting it off was simple but the cleivs was messed up so it rotated in an elliptical pattern causing my bait to lean to one side so by putting a bead under the clevis it will keep it from getting pushed down on the bend in the wire.