Custom Baits - Forum
Soft Plastic Bait Making => Getting Started / Customer Support => Topic started by: Jason on 11/25/12 14:49 UTC
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Plastic 101 (Plastisol)
This is not an exhaustive resource for Plastisol, but a practical guide to the plastic used to make soft plastic baits. It may not apply to all brands, but the principals should apply to most PVC based plastics. Where possible I address "non CCM plastic" based on my experiences.
What is it?
At a high level Plastisol is made up of 3 main components: Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC), Plasticizer, and Heat Stabilizer. In the case of CC plastic we use a blend of Plasticizers and Heat Stabilizers. Below is the function of each:
Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC): Is the plastic. It's what gives the worm mass.
Plasticizer: This can be many different things, but ultimately is what softens the plastic so it's not hard like a PVC pipe. Plasticizer is also what's used in some scents, added to pigment to make colorant, and is also called worm oil, softener, etc. As I mentioned, there are many different kinds, each with it's own unique properties. An example is our Softener and Worm Oil, both are Plasticizers, but one produce a dry feel, while the other is oily (worm oil).
Heat Stabilizer: Heat Stabilizer can be many things (barium, zinc, etc.). Virgin plastic contains heat stabilizer, but more may be needed based on how long and/or vigorously you heat your plastic. I'll explain more below.
New Plastisol
Plastic still in the container (new plastisol): PVC, Plasticizer, and Heat Stabilizer do not weigh the same. With our formula we have tried to keep the components as close as possible to prevent hard pack, but it will still separate (just like ketchup in a bottle gets water on top when it sits for a while). With CC simply turning the box over several times will cause it to all re-suspend again. If it's been sitting all year it may take a few more turns than normal.
What happens if I don't mix my plastic well?
With most brands it will settle and you will pour primarily plasticizer from the top of the container. The result is baits that are like jelly and will never setup. The reason should be obvious given the above information, because it is not mixed well, you are getting a disproportionate amount of plasticizer (softener) vs. PVC (your formula is out of whack because you didn't mix it well).
With CCM Plastisol we've tried to minimize this two ways: 1) We formulated a Plastisol that doesn't hard pack, and 2) we made it pour from the bottom. Does this mean it is problem free? Unfortunately no. It is still susceptible to separation, however, it is the opposite since you are pulling from the bottom of the container. Forgetting to roll it over before use can cause one of two problems. Depending on how long it sat you may not notice until you get to the end and there is more plasticizer (softener) and not as much PVC. This will produce jelly worms (it's still useable but will need to be blended with new plastic that you don't forget to rotate). The other potential problem arises if you forget to rotate it and the stabilizer is pulled out disproportionately. Both scenarios are less than desirable, but can be managed by recognizing the problem and adjusting accordingly. The ideal thing is to always rotate your box and avoid the problem all together.
The cooking process...
It is critical that all PVC be heated to 350 degrees for it to correctly cook. Failure to heat an entire batch to 350 degrees may cause your baits to "phase" (discolor, become oily, basically deteriorate).
During the cooking process the PVC splits, producing vinyl and chloride. In the absence of a Heat Stabilizer the chloride will reattach itself to the vinyl, causing the vinyl to discolor (yellow - or worse...). A key thing to note here is that a Stabilizer can only be attached to one time. Once the Heat Stabilizer has been attached to it becomes a byproduct in your plastic.
So there are some obvious questions at this point:
Why not just add a bunch of stabilizer so it's not an issue? To much stabilizer will produce an undesirable plastic. It could manifest itself as being difficult to work with, oily, smelly, discoloring, unstable, etc.
How much Heat Stabilizer should be added? I wish there was an easy answer to this. It depends on the amount of heat that is applied, and how long it is going to be applied (as both of these determine the amount of chlorides that are produced). This is where experience, experimenting and skill come into play. The key thing to note is that an excessive amount will keep baits from yellowing, but cause other undesirable effects, and not enough will allow the plastic to yellow (chlorides attaching to vinyl).
For a "typical heating process" we add enough stabilizer for it to be cooked in the microwave 3 times prior to adding additional stabilizer. With that said, there is no typical heating process because everybody's microwave, cook top, pot, etc. is different.
The only way "how much?" could be accurately answered would be if we all used the same equipment, at the same altitude, with the same amount of humidity. Even the color of colorant you use can make a difference.
Keep really good notes of what you are doing so you can refer back to them for future runs.
Things to watch out for:
Microwave: a turntable is a must, watch for hot spots, heat can get away from you in a hurry, make sure it is thoroughly cooked - not just the top or middle, stir and recheck. Towards the end of cooking make small time adjustments - 15 seconds can be a long time if you're sitting at 340...
Presto Pots and the like (inexpensive heating sources): They are either on, or off. They come on full blast and don't shut off until the thermostat tells it to. This can be problematic if the plastic isn't moving, or you are working with a small amount of plastic. Make sure and stir - a lot, or get one with a stirring mechanism.
Direct Heat (Burner type devices): Same as presto pot, but if you invest in a device with a variable element it prevents the "blast of heat". Another alternative I have yet to explore is using a Cast Iron pot (sounds promising but I don't have first hand experience yet).
Must haves:
A good thermometer. I know some don't use them, but how many chemist would produce a product and not control as many variables as possible - none that are currently employed? http://www.amazon.com/CDN-DTQ450X-ProAccurate-Quick-Read-Thermometer/dp/B0021AEAG2/ref=sr_1_1?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1353867035&sr=1-1&keywords=digital+thermometer (http://www.amazon.com/CDN-DTQ450X-ProAccurate-Quick-Read-Thermometer/dp/B0021AEAG2/ref=sr_1_1?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1353867035&sr=1-1&keywords=digital+thermometer)
Proper Ventilation. It's not a luxury, it is a must have.
A respirator and proper personal protection (clothing), again it's not a luxury, it is a must have.
Keep really good notes of what you are doing so you can refer back to them for future runs.
Additional Common Questions:
Once plastic starts to yellow can it be stopped by adding stabilizer? Maybe technically, but not really. Once you run it to the point it starts to yellow it's time to make it a darker color and call it quits.
When should I add glitter? Glitter is the most heat sensitive component in the process, add it last and try to minimize the heat it is subjected to.
When should I add colorant? You can add it at any point, but you will get the most vibrant true colors by adding it before you cook your plastic. It is also much easier to stir in when the plastic is cold (liquid) vs molten.
How do I make my baits softer? You can add softener (Plasticizer).
How do I make my baits harder? Most companies sell a hardener (PVC concentrated Plastisol).
Can I mix products from other companies? I have never heard of an adverse effect of doing so, but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen. Normally you will just end up with properties from both (mix an oily plastic with a dry plastic and you would end up with a slightly oily plastic).
Will my plastic freeze? CC plastic is good to -50 degrees. If you are somewhere it gets colder than that you need to move. - sorry
Max plastic temperature: Don't be afraid to get your plastic up around 360 / 370 as long as you are good on stabilizer. Make sure and never get it up around 500 degrees. 500 degrees is when it puts off toxic fumes.
Feel free to ask any additional questions you have. I will add to this as other questions are asked, but this addresses the majority of them and explains what's happening when you are cooking plastic.
Tight lines!
Jason
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Great INFO...not looking forward to the move ;D
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Thank You Sir!
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Great post, Jason. I'd suggest you add to it whenever nessasary and repost it at least annually. You might also consider providing a copy to any first time purchasers of CC plastisol. Lest I forget, hug your wife and call your mother.
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Great info Jason! Thank you!
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Thank You!
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Thanks Jason. Good info. Sound advice Denny. I leave my plastisol in my unheated garage year round. The only negative effect I've experienced from this is condensation inside the jugs that causes micro bubbles. I have less than 1 gallon left to use, then I'm switching to CCM. Problem solved. Your method of packaging is definitely the way to go jason. Well done.
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Safety:
350+ degree plastic is very HOT....and will cause severe burns.
ALWAYS wear your gloves. Closed toe shoes with socks (those injectors can drip!). Long pants are a must. Long sleeves (or welders sleeves) is a darn good idea.
ALWAYS keep a container of water handy..in case you do get plastic on you so you can quickly submerge your hand/fingers! Keep the water away from hot plastic because water and plastic do NOT mix (hot enough to cause the water to instantly go to steam). Never try to wipe off hot plastic...you just smear it and make a bigger burn. Submerge in water immediately!
NEVER leave the area when you are heating your plastic because... In the very unlikely event you get a plastic fire (or smoke)...treat it like a very toxic event! Evaluate the room, get extra ventilation.
Always wear a respirator...even in a well ventilated shop.
Remember that Pressure and Speed are the enemy in any type of injection molding. Use only hand pressure. If you need to push "hard"...something is very wrong...STOP and figure it out!!! Pushing the injector hard and fast makes bad baits...and can lead to hot plastic squirting around!
Treat that injector like a gun...never point it at yourself...especially your face!!!!!
They don't call them "accidents" because you did it on purpose!!!
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All good advice, Andy. As always.
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So Andy, if sometimes I wear a pair of shorts and a pair of Vans or New Balance, I'm guessing I need to re-read your post!!!
seriously, everything you said is valid.. Hebrews 5:8 "we learn obedience through the things we suffer"
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During one of our meetings Andy and I did a "plastic burn scar" comparison. I think I have a couple more than he has. What Andy says about keeping a jug of water handy is Gospel. Just keep the water where hot plastic is not going to accidently get into it. Or vice-versa.
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This is an amazing thread! I have personally knocked a cup of plastic off my table and went strait down my leg. I felt it through jeans but was not burnt. Prior to that I had shot plastics a few times in shorts. Never again and thank goodness for jeans that day! Understanding plastisol and how it does what it does makes adjusting to issues so much easier!
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BUMP..especially for you guys new to pouring baits. It's also a good refresher for us older flatulates.
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So - lets talk about the 'bottom of the box' - I recently finished off my first 2.5 gallon box of plastisol - as I hate to waste - I tipped the box until I got every last drop - then I pulled to bag out to get a little more.
Some of what came out at the end was not 'white' in comparsion to the rest.
THis plastic was noticably harder then all the previous batches - to the point that it wouldn't stir right or inject 'quite' right (you could tell a difference).
So - have I not been shaking the box enough? this had only been in my posession for about a month and I did give it a good tussle now and then.
When do you decide the 'box' is empty?
How often do you shake the box?
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Wow a great read and great info and I learned a lot. I am ready to try it. Thanks.
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Great post for us noob's thank you very much
a question if I may ......... at what temp should I worry about my colorants freezing ?
as always thank you all very much
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Somewhere it was mentioned that -50 or colder might not be good.
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I know this thread is old but this seem like the best place to ask this question.. what are the temperature limits for storing plastisol .. I have a shop where I will be doing most of my work. It is not heated or cooled and in summer time can be as hot as 120° in there during the heat of the Alabama summer..this is with it locked up when I'm not using the shop. Would it be ok to store the plastisol and coloring in there when not in use?
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Your plastic should tolerate the heat. There are others who live in Bama that have workshops set apart from their homes and they don't seem to register many complaints.
What is the humidity level like during the hot times? I'd keep an eye on humidity issues like micro bubbles and if they become a problem I'd keep the plastic in the house when perhaps a dehumidifier is keeping the moisture levels in check. Sometimes its more convenient to store larger containers of plastic in the house and fill smaller ones to take out to the shop area, but the only issue I can see with Alabama in the summer and plastic storage in a work shop would maybe be high humidity.
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I'm thinking of installing a small until in it that would help with humidity and heating/cooling.. plus gonna add an exhaust fan.. would it then be ok to store them in there.. I'm sure I'll never have more that 2 gallons at a time since I will only be making plastics for me and a few friends
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I keep all my plastic in my shop. I have heat in the winter just to keep my boats from freezing. No air conditioning but it's well insulated. I'm in Arkansas.
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Do you also keep your colors in there?
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Do you also keep your colors in there?
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Yes, all my tacklecrafting and man supplies stay there ;)
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What's the avg temp in there during our brutal summers.. mine gets to around 90
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I think your safe. My biggest problem is moisture being on a big slab but that's mostly in the springtime.
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Is it a good Idea to have a 2nd microwave to do this in?
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It is NOT a good idea to heat your plastic in your kitchen microwave! (I'm assuming that is your question).
Buy a cheap microwave at Walmart to do your baits. I prefer a cheap microwave because it is a lower power unit and it is less likely to overheat your plastic quickly causing issues.
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Yes that's exactly what I'm asking. I don't want to get my family sick from doing this. Thank you for the tip
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Plus it needs to be well ventilated where your doing it or get a charcoal mask. There is specs on mask somewhere on here
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Ok I was planning on doing it in my apartment. I guess I'll have to rethink this
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IMO shooting plastic in the house isn't a good idea. When I was first getting started I thought I would set up in the basement or my garage. I ended choosing the garage. It's a little inconvenient but knowing what I know now no way would I set in the house.
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Same here 2XL. I ended up in the garage. The plastic smell seems to be more at home there. I built a new work station in the garage, and with the exception of being cold in the winter, it works very well.
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I can do it on my porch during the spring and summer. But what do I do durning the winter lots to think about
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I feel your pain we are having to do our plastics on the back patio. The house we are living in now has no garage. It’s not a huge problem since I plan on buying another home of my own after the first of the year. My only worry is I have a short fence and a nosey neighbor that works as a security guard who thinks he is the neighborhood secret service. I worry he will see me and kid outside with respirators on and call the real cops and say we are cooking meth but so far it hasn’t happened and I guess oh well if they do I’m in the clear with nothing to hide.
Also hauling the microwave in and out sucks
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I'm not worried about hauling the microwave in and out. Just worried about winter time making them in the house won't know till I try I guess
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I’m not going to be the plastic police. But will tell you it will smoke up your house and make it smell. And drop a jar of flak and see what the old lady says. Or spill hot plastic on the good counter tops. It’s an out of the house kinda gig if you ask me. But. I’m sure with a big fan and window you could make it work.
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I appreciate the tips and info. I have folding tables so the counters are safe. Just need a new microwave. My wife is pretty easy going and understanding I'll try it once and see what happens
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I know me very well, so I understood going in I was going to be bitten by the bug. As a consolation prize for my wife, I volunteered to take the family microwave out into the garage for use with my plastics with a promise to replace it with a much better brand new jobbie with all the bells and whistles. I am now happily rolling around in plastics/molds and the wife has a gleaming brand new do everything micro. Win win.
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I turned a spare bedroom into my shop. I put down a canvas cloth on the floor and use folding tables. My microwave and pour spot and the place I put my lead pot are right in front of a large window with a box fan pulling air out. I have a fan at my back and a fan in the front of the house pulling fresh air in. The only smell I notice in the room is from my scent oils.
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I feel your pain we are having to do our plastics on the back patio. The house we are living in now has no garage. It’s not a huge problem since I plan on buying another home of my own after the first of the year. My only worry is I have a short fence and a nosey neighbor that works as a security guard who thinks he is the neighborhood secret service. I worry he will see me and kid outside with respirators on and call the real cops and say we are cooking meth but so far it hasn’t happened and I guess oh well if they do I’m in the clear with nothing to hide.
Also hauling the microwave in and out sucks
LOL on the nosey neighbor, I'd do it every day until he did call the police.
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LOL on the nosey neighbor, I'd do it every day until he did call the police.
Lol I'm with lines. Let them call the police.
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It wouldn’t bother me I’d think it was funny if he did he is the one that would look stupid when it was all said and done.
Heck maybe we get a cop that fishes and we sell a few lures also there is a female cop that works our part of town in the evenings that I’m sure my teenage boys would mind coming by the house for some lure education.
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I'm waiting for a cop to pull into my driveway some day. I can't believe nobody in hood hasn't called the cops on me yet after seeing me walk in and out of my garage with my respirator on. Hahahaha
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Wonder what it would be like to have the cops show up now that I don’t have to hide my beer from them?
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Does worm oil keep the bait from sticking to the mold? When can it be put in?
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Does worm oil keep the bait from sticking to the mold? When can it be put in?
Yes. I just brush a little on before I pour. Works great on tube molds
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I am sure this question will seem dumb to some, but i just started trying to make my own soft plastic worms and wondered does the soft bait essential series plastisol come with hardener already in it? The reason i ask is because i have tried twice and my worms have not setup after heating them and injecting it into the mold.
Thanks in advance for any suggestion.
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Welcome to the forum larryst. Are you using a thermometer to check your plastisol after heating? It needs to be a full 350° in order to convert it. If it's not 350° or over it will not set up, and stay in a gel state. Checking the temperature with a thermometer is the only way to be sure it's hot enough. Good luck.
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I will invest in a better thermometer and see what happens. thanks for the advice
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Also be sure to mix your plastisol very well before using
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Your welcome larryst, hope that helps.
Also be sure to mix your plastisol very well before using
Also a good point DF makes.
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ok guys, I went from one problem to another! I tried to make some worms last night, I shook up the plastic stuff up really well, added the color mixing it well and then put it in an cast iron skillet. I started heating it with an colemen stove out in my shed with the thermometer in there watching for 350. I noticed my plastic starting to setup in little pieice when my thermometer was showing around 225, so I I turned the fire off to my stove and then took my injector and got some some of the plastic to put in my swimbait mold. Well when it setup up, it appears my plastic didn't get in all the channels in the mold. I then noticed my plastic in my skillet had setup. I am wondering if maybe I heated it too fast causing it to setup before it all ready. any thoughts?
Thanks
Larry
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When heating, the plastisol will go from thin white to a thick gel and finally to a clear thinner state. As mentioned earlier, you need to take it to 350 before you inject it. Once it has gotten to 350 you can inject it until it cools down to around 290 - 300. I would also suggest that you don't add your colorant or flake (with a few exceptions) until after you get to 350 (it's easier to see where you are color-wise working with clear plastisol).
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The tricky part is after reaching the 350 degree mark is keeping at, or near that temperature without scorching in a skillet. I tried a coleman stove, but couldn't keep the temps close enough. An electric hot plate is easier to control. Most guys on here use a microwave. Stirring frequently helps to distribute the heat more evenly. Don't get discouraged, you'll figure it out quickly. There are many pros on here to lead you along.
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ok guys, thanks for all your advice and help so far, so I gotta show what I did today after work using my coleman stove to heat the plastic!
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Very nice larryst 8)
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Now you're cooking with gas! Those look good larryst. Glad you got it figured out.
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Hello, I think am would like to get started with soft plastics and building out my basement area to do this, Any suggestions. Whats the best microwave WATTage to have, if minimum, looking to by a used one
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Welcome to the Do-It forums!
Microwaves can be fickle. I use a 1100 watt unit but then I have been doing this many years and know how to handle the plastic. To start, I suggest looking for a used 900 watt oven.
READ, READ, READ. There's a ton of information to be gotten right here so taking time to read can save you a lot of frustration. The Essential line of plastic, colorants, and molds are the cat's meow for getting your feet wet and everything that goes into the Essential plastic can be used for other plastics so your ability to play between brands and such is a broad playing field. Get to understand the terms and get familiar with the different products used and then make an order.
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Without imperfection data. Sound direction Denny. I leave my plastisol in my unheated parking space yr round. The principle shocking outcome I've capable from this is tiffany brissette (https://arynews.tv/en/robot-vicki-small-wonder-tiffany-brissette-transformed/) development inside the compartments that points of view littler scale bubbles. I've not up to 1 gallon left to use, by then I am changing to CCM. Obstacle lit up. Your technique of packaging is emphatically how you can go jason. Extraordinary achieved.
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I comprehend this string is old yet this show up the best spot to speak to this solicitation. what are very far for verifying plastic. I have a shop where I will do the majority of my work. It isn't warmed or cooled and in pre summer can be as sweltering as 120° in there amidst the sparkle of the Alabama summer.
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super helpful thank you