Custom Baits - Forum
Soft Plastic Bait Making => Soft Plastic and Plastic Baits - How To??? => Topic started by: 2XL on 09/02/17 14:47 UTC
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Decided to shoot some Wax Wigglers this aft and am having issues the cavities not filling out completely. Actually, it's more bubbles from trapped air in the mold. I tried shooting hot and cooler plastic. Light and heavy clamping and shooting fast and slow but can't seem to get away from the bubble issue. It's not every cavity but I would say %25 of the baits are coming out with trapped bubbles in them.
Would a hotter mold do any good ?
Thanks for any advice.
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May have an o-ring in your injector going bad and your drawing air into the injector.
I have had very good luck with my wigglers.
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I pour my plastic into my injector, purge then shoot my mold. I don't think it's bubbles in my plastic, just tiny voids in some of the baits where it seems the air got trapped in the mold. The tiny voids seem to always be on the same side of the baits. Maybe I need to open the vents a tiny bit ? Dunno
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I have noticed that when I pour plastic into the injector...short of the full line where the nozzle ends...I can get bubbles in my baits unless I purge that air gap immediately.
If you don't, the bubble of air starts to rise to the top of the injector when you turn it over to inject, and probably gets injected into the mold.
I addition to being a potential safety hazzard:
Squirting hot plastic when you connect the nozzle.
Pouring hot plastic on my hand while filling.
So, I have returned to sucking the plastic into the injector vs. pouring it in.
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I suck plastic in and purge a couple times. I don't have a issue with the wiggler mold I have.
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Is this the first time you've used that mold?
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I always fill my injector to the point where I can still put the nozzle on without forcing any plastic out. I then purge my injector immediately after I fill it. As I said before, I don't think this is a bubble in the plastic issue ( Although there always seem to be a few ) as I would have bubbles in all of the baits I shoot if it were. I have the same issue with the thump grub and ring it molds sometimes. Those two molds I shoot a little cooler and slower and that solves the void issue for me. I tried that with the WW mold yesterday but still couldn't get away from the little voids in some of the baits. I have shot many good baits with the WW mold before but just couldn't get away from the voids the last few times I have shot that mold. Since I work a ton of hours come summer my opportunities to shoot baits are very limited = I was frustrated dude yesterday. LOL
Andrew, When I first started messing with plastic baits I did suck the plastic out of my cup. To me it was a cumbersome process and I never got comfortable going that route. Then I saw a video where Jerry V poured his plastic into the injector so I tried that and have never looked back. Have I spilled plastic on my hands going that route ? Yes but not very often and I wear the appropriate clothing/gloves/apron etc so it's not a big deal to me on the odd occasion that a spill happens.
To be clear, I am not advocating filling ones injector either way. It's just that pouring plastic into my injector just seems to work best for me.
I don't think there is an issue but I will inspect my mold and give it a good cleaning just to make sure there aren't any potential debris issues that may be inhibiting venting/plastic flow.
Thanks for the input guys. I appreciate it.
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No Lines, I got this mold when it first came out and have shot hundreds of baits through through it. Yesterday was the first time I shot it since early spring and I had a few void issues with it then too but not as bad as yesterday.
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Try letting up on the clamp pressure. And keep both clamps high on the mold, over the bait cavities and not so low as to block the large cavity that the tails all bent into. I had a couple injections that muffed up and clamp placement changed everything for the Breyer.
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I have this mold (several of them actually), it's an issue with the vents, i.e. not enough. This particular bait (85% of the hand injection molds on the market have inadequate vents and or gates) needs a hell of a lot more venting than one channel out the tail of the bait. It has nothing to do with your injector or how you fill it.
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I tried less pressure on the clamps to the point that the baits flashed. I will have to mess around with clamp placement next. The WW is proving to be a pretty fussy mold for me of late. LOL I agree with Bob and think it's a venting issue. Since I originally posted this thread, I have heard from one other person who was having the same issues as I am having.
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Sounds like poor ventilation to me. My 2.5” carrot use to do this to me until I vented it more. I don’t understand why do-it molds don’t have adequate ventilation. I’d try less clamp pressure. If this doesn’t work cut vents in mold with a razor knife or better bet break out the Dremel.
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I don’t understand why do-it molds don’t have adequate ventilation.
Like I said, it's 85% of the hand pour molds on the market aren't properly vented. Had a chat with Ray Guess at Zorn Molds (Largest equipment/mold supplier to the large scale production side) once, told me there was no way you could vent a soft plastic mold too much. No reason in my opinion should a hand injection mold only be vented out the tail, especially a small bait that has segments that can trap air.
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No Lines, I got this mold when it first came out and have shot hundreds of baits through through it. Yesterday was the first time I shot it since early spring and I had a few void issues with it then too but not as bad as yesterday.
The reason I asked is because I had similar problems with a couple of my molds. Turned out it was my plastic that went south. Try some fresh plastisol to see if it cures your problems before you modify the vents of your mold. Worked for me! I also learned much more about storing and handling my plastic. Good luck!
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Thanks Lines. I used fresh and reheated plastic the last time on that mold Saturday and still had issues. I'm far from being a plastics expert but I would like to think I know enough to figure this thing out. It bugs me that I haven't.
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Tried everything hat was suggested in this thread and more but still can't get this mold to shoot good baits consistently. Think I had 1 good shot out of 8 or 9 tries this morning. I really don't know what else to try aside from opening up the vents a little. I'm not too keen on that idea.
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Strange that you get complete tails but such large voids in the bodies. Not a fix and not sure it will make any difference but maybe leave a piece of spru in the mold blocking the last few cavities and see if with less cavities to fill you will get complete baits.
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Those look to be "dimples" from cooling?
May try holding pressure on the injector a bit longer after shooting?
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I shot them at 300 to 360. I always hold the pressure for a ten count then top off the mold. I adjusted the clamp pressure and placement. I heated mold warmer than I usually do. I used fresh and remelted plastic. No matter what I tried I came up with bubbles or dimples in about a quarter of my baits. Though I really don't want to I think I'll have to try opening the vents a little bit. Other than that, I am at a total loss as to what to do next. Unless I get a rain day or two soon I won't have any time to mess with this mold for a couple weeks now. Too bad, I have a bunch of people wanting these baits.
Thanks for the input everyone. I appreciate it.
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Tried everything hat was suggested in this thread and more but still can't get this mold to shoot good baits consistently. Think I had 1 good shot out of 8 or 9 tries this morning. I really don't know what else to try aside from opening up the vents a little. I'm not too keen on that idea.
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You don't need to open up the vents, they are open plenty, the mold needs a vent across every section of the bait. Needs more than just one vent out the tail.
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Agree with Bob on this one. This doesn't occur in the smaller of the two sizes, however the larger can baits come out like this fairly common. Using a good, small, square and a utility knife venting can be cut into the mold fairly easy. I added these vents to the three segments from the tail, the top segment never dented like this on any of mold molds. It took about five minutes to do this. Add the scratch-vent at the widest part of each segment all across the spread of the larger baits' cavities using a straight edge, then using a square make cuts between each bait from the new horizontal cut to the bottom of the mold.
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ctom
Would you take a picture, and post it, dealing with what you are talking about.
Cutting into a mold is not something I have ever done.
Need to wonder where Do-it sits on this?
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ctom
Would you take a picture, and post it, dealing with what you are talking about.
Cutting into a mold is not something I have never done.
Need to wonder where Do-it sits on this?
We stand behind all of our products. If you have a specific issue, we will take care of it. Call 319-984-6055 and ask for Jordan or Ryan.
We spend a ton of time testing our products before we bring them to the market. We test our molds in a rather controlled environment and cant duplicate all the situations. We do value input for customers that are "boots on the ground" and have made modifications to our production that will help the end user. We are revisiting this mold. I will also argue that more vents is not always the solution.
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There is a big difference between all the air not being purged from the mold as you inject (the air is purged via the vents) and having air and bubbles IN your plastic when you inject.
Do you notice big bubbles (not microbubbles) in your plastic before you inject?
If the plastic did not get completely mixed just one time...you can jack the chemistry and end up with bubbles, sticky baits etc. with the remaining plastic in the container.
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So many variables and causes of issues. Following this one closely for the remedy. Good luck2XL.
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ctom
Would you take a picture, and post it, dealing with what you are talking about.
Cutting into a mold is not something I have never done.
Need to wonder where Do-it sits on this?
Not much will get by the eyes of the Do--It crew. As they have alluded to, they're on it so I'll let them work it out and pass on any pictures. What I do to my molds I have to live with if things go south. The same applies to those who choose to modify molds. I'm simply saying that I addressed the issue on one of the molds I have for this bait in this fashion, but I am very mechanically inclined and have an excellent shop tool collection with which to work. The other molds shoot just fine.
I've had the occasion to see first hand how Do-It arrives at a final mold and I have also seen how many times one mold can be made before a final word is given. The company is relentless to quality but even so little things can rear an ugly head down the road and if it happens I can attest that the crew is on the problem like a junebug on a duck's back and that they'll get resolution to the issue. Just hang tight.
I'm also going to say that I have a few bags of these with the dents set aside that I use personally and will tell anyone that they catch as many fish as those slick suckers without the dimples. These dinky dents are to me like the little bubbles inside my transparent baits....they act as another surface to reflect light and that attracts fish. I sell a few of these so of course I want a clean bait in the package but I don't waste time on re-melting when they work just fine with the divots.
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To clear the air a little, my post wasn't meant to shed a bad light on Do-it, their products or anyone else. I can see how it could be seen that way. I have zero questions in my mind about Do-its integrity , customer service or them doing their due diligence and then some developing new molds. I have been using Do-it molds for over 30 years and will continue using/buying new ones for as long as I am on the right side of the grass. I probably should have gone to Do-it with this issue from the get go but figured I would ask here hoping I could figure it out with a little help from you guys. I don't know if this was necessary but I just wanted to make sure there was no bad mounting/PAMING on my part.
Andrew, Bubbles in my plastic are not the issue. A few micro bubbles every now and then ? Yes but nothing the size of what's showing up in those baits. If it were bigger bubbles then they woudl show up in my other baits which they don't. I mix/shake my plastic for 2-3 minutes before I cook my first batch of plastic. I shake it again with each batch I make during every bait making session. Heck, even when I am waiting for my baits to cool or plastic to hit 350 I give it a shake or two. Sometimes I get bubbles from pouring the raw plastic into my cup but I always wait until those bubbles dissipate before I pop it in the microwave. When I fill my injector, I tilt it to the side a little bit so the plastic runs down the side ( inside ) to avoid introducing any bubbles. I have found that pouring it strait into the injector causes bubbles.
I'll call Do-it one of these days if I can find the time. I'm working 10-14 hour days pretty much 6 days a week (save the last two Saturdays) I also spent the last 36 hours wondering how my dad would fare as he rode out Irene near Clearwater. I was pretty happy to hear all is well with him and his home late this morning. Bottom line is I am beat.
Thanks for everyone's input. A lot of good dudes here for sure.
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You kind of got my curiosity up. Have shot lots of wax wigglers and lots of another brand of wiggler. My son likes the Wax wigglers and I like the other ones.
Just shot some white so I ran down and tried some wax wigglers.
Shot at 325 in a cold mold Essential series plastic.
Shot a couple batches all came out well.
I'm real curious what the outcome is.
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Just as an off-hand X2, look at your mold and notice that the cavities run horizontally with ten on each side of the runner. Which side is dimpling, the side that shoots up or the side shooting down? My mold with the extra vent help was dimpling on the upward side of the runner and always on the upward side of each bait. The cavities are slanted and I assumed that air got stopped in the tops of the segment sections because of the narrower waist between them and prevented fully filling. Just something to look at for the Do-It crew.
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I would be curious to see if the mold behaves the same if you were shooting the bait in watermelon/ red flake.
Maybe it's just me...but I have issues with white!!! That's why I shoot "Mo's Milk" instead of white.
I wonder if all the pigment in the color white causes issues.
Just wondering!
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There is a big difference between all the air not being purged from the mold as you inject (the air is purged via the vents) and having air and bubbles IN your plastic when you inject.
Do you notice big bubbles (not microbubbles) in your plastic before you inject?
If the plastic did not get completely mixed just one time...you can jack the chemistry and end up with bubbles, sticky baits etc. with the remaining plastic in the container.
100% agreement here.
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I have shot these baits in a lot of different colors but mostly red , white and black. The dimples occur on all the colors I have tried. The funny thing is that it doesn't happen every time I shoot that mold. By that I mean I will shoot a mold or two and have dimples then the next shot I get all good baits and it goes back and forth like that. Like with the white ones I posted a picture of. I shot that mold 6 or 7 times but only got one batch of good baits. Thinking that since I set my mold on a flat surface I though I would elevate the mold about a quarter inch to MAKE SURE the nothing was potentially blocking the vent holes. I thought ALRIGHT ! I got it figured out at last. So I did the same thing three more times and ended up with dimpled baits.
The dimples appear on the baits on the lower row of baits especially toward the end .... I think. The dimples usually appear on one side of the bait but sometimes they show up on both sides. If it were bubbles in my plastic then I would think the dimples would be more random but they are fairly consistent in where they show up. It could very well be something I am doing wrong but for the life of me I can't figure what that would be. I don't have these issues with other small baits I shoot. I fished this bait a LOT last winter and it has become my go to plastic bait for panfish. That bait has made a believer out of a few of my friends who have fished it too. I'd love to get this figured out before the snow flies so I can stockpile a bunch of these baits for me and the boys for the upcoming ice season.
Thanks again for all the input.
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I'm just gonna throw this out there as I don't believe it's been mentioned. Have you checked out the condition/fit of your o rings in your injector? Those need to fit right and be in good shape or you can draw air into your injector as you draw plastic from your cup. If you put your finger over your nozzle and pull the plunger, you shouldn't get any air passing by the o rings. Pull the plunger back and release it and it should return back to the bottom of the injector tube. Don't let it slam back as that could damage your injector. Since you've tried a lot of stuff, I'm just throwing this one out there. Might as well take a look. If you are getting some bypass, as long as the orings are in decent shape, you can tighten the fit by removing the o rings and putting a couple rounds of Teflon tape in the groove and reinstalling the o rings.
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AP has a valid idea here, but I still am convinced that if the bait cavities stood vertically instead of angled in the mold the issue would not exist. I think that as plastic goes into the cavities the small areas of restriction between the body segments is where the air is getting trapped within each segment. There isn't a lot of plastic in the segments and it will cool in a blink so any air caught in there is a dimple. There is no venting to void air in what is the top of those segments behind the restricted areas as that "waist is lower than the top of the inside of the segment....at least that is how I see it. I think that the intermittent full filling happens when things are "super right" and that air is voided during the injection, but this would also include having an injector that is fully sealing as per AP's observation.
As I mentioned before, I have one mold that balked a bit occasionally yet the other couple are clean injectors and all molds are shot clamped together one right after the other and only the one has ever been iffy, but is no longer with a little air relief help. I haven't touched an o-ring in my primary injector ever so I don't feel that it has been a part of it at all. That's not to say that X2 hasn't got a minor air issue in his. My primary injector is NOT a Do-It injector, however my twin injector is and I had an o-ring issue in one of the cylinders of it not all that long ago that was letting air into cavities and re-ringing it took care of the problem. Rather than dimples the problem I encountered was that the good cylinder would force an air lock on the bad cylinder so colors would not flow properly.
These things can get challenging to sort out, but they're also frustrating for everyone too, especially the crew making the molds. The crew in the shop are top notch....they'll get it figured out.
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I use the same injector Tom does. In fact I have two of them. The thought did cross my mind that there may be an issue with the injector. I primarily use the one injector most of the time so I switched to the other lesser used injector but got the same results with the baits. I do have replacement O rings so I may just replace one and see if that helps. My guess is it won't but it's worth a try. I would love to get right on this but I just don't have time to mess with it. Unless I get a rain day I won't be able to play with this stuff until the weekend after next.
Another thought I had was to put thin film of worm oil in the cavities to see if that would help. Doing that has helped me with a couple other finicky molds I have. I have an idea that this too won't help but it's worth a try as well.
Tom you may be onto something with the cavities not being vertical. Then again, others are getting good baits with the same ? mold so who knows.
Thanks for the ideas.
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"Tom you may be onto something with the cavities not being vertical. Then again, others are getting good baits with the same ?"...X2
Even though these molds are cut on machines of precision, every mold made can have its own little nuances that make it a challenge. A very minute burr or a .001" deviation at the wrong place can be a real headache. How many times has a mold worked absolutely flawlessly then all of a sudden you get flashing when you never changed a thing in your injection practice? Only to find a tiny piece of flattened plastic, hardly even visible, in the area of the flashing that encompasses 3/4 of the mold face. It doesn't take much to throw a chink in the machinery of the injection process.
The mold in question is a popular mold with us small bait guys and I'm sure there are a bunch on work benches that are flawless in use. When I lay my set of molds out open on the bench in excellent light they all look the same to me, yet one has an issue that I had to address. I cannot see the deviation in it, but have concluded that one or two exist that had created a problem. What I did to the mold took care of the problem so I have to believe that my observations with that particular mold were spot on. Whether the issue you have is the same I can't say, I just know how sometimes some very minute difference can throw a huge wrench in the function of some stuff.
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but I still am convinced that if the bait cavities stood vertically instead of angled in the mold the issue would not exist.
Tom you mentioned this once before but I'm a bit confused when your talking about the cavities being "angled"?
Maybe a picture of what your talking about.
The Wax wiggler mold I have has cavities vertical if the opening is on top.
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http://store.do-itmolds.com/11-135-Wax-Wiggler_p_1259.html
Pretty sure this is what he means.
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OK.
Had a bit of a brain cramp in regards to the wax wiggler being vertical. I guess I never paid attention to the mold that close.
But I have another brand of mold that I use and they are horizontal.
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Not to nit-pik MT, but that would be horizontal in the other mold. :P
Slow here today, so never mind me.
On another note regarding the dimples....I never have seen ay in any of my molds in the small baits.
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Not to nit-pik MT, but that would be horizontal in the other mold. :P
Slow here today, so never mind me.
On another note regarding the dimples....I never have seen ay in any of my molds in the small baits.
Corrected.
It's been a long day.
The wax wiggler was my first mold that got me started in this great hobby/addiction.
Thanks Mark
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I have a nephew in West Yellowstone, MT that guides on a lake there. He ice fishes in the national park lakes where he has to pack in a couple miles and I keep him in plastics. The wax wigglers really flip his switch late this last winter....already leaning on me for this winter's supply. Great bait, great mold. Making the two sizes simultaneously is a big plus too.
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2XL, did you ever fix this mold? If so, please send pictures of what you modified!! I have been having the same issues and I am to the point of modifying my mold.
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I have 2xl’s wiggler mold and am working on a fix for it. When I finish my tinkering I’ll get it back to him and he can share the fix with ya’ll.