Custom Baits - Forum
Soft Plastic Bait Making => Soft Plastic and Plastic Baits - How To??? => Topic started by: ghostbaits on 09/19/12 14:09 UTC
-
Had a friend that bought some baits off of the net, both 3.5 swim shads and 5" Wutz-Its. Some friend as he did not buy from me!!!!
Anyway, he told me after 3 casts (rigged on a chatterbait) the baits tore apart right down the colors. Almost like they were "glued together and the seam broke". He described the baits and there is no doubt they were made with the laminate plates.
If you are using the plates, you may want to consider a full dip or a real good inspection prior to shipping/selling.
Jim
-
PS While I use the twinjector, I still hand pour some bellies on my 3 color baits. I tested a few and sure enough, they peel apart suprisingly easy. :'(
Looks like a full dip may be in order for my 3 color baits now.... :(
Jim
-
I had the same problem with lami's & belly pours. All I do now is toss the mold on the griddle @ 250-255 and pour/shoot the lami then place it back on the griddle before I finish up the rest of the mold be it 2/3/4 colors and I have yet to have one "peel".
Drew
-
I think Drew hit it on the head - heat isn't optional.
-
I took drews advice a while back and it has seemed to make a big difference on this.
-
I was told; heating a mold could warp it.? True or not? How hot are you heating your molds?
-
I start by placing my injector(s) open end down (without the nozzle) on the griddle, and place my mold (open) and lami plate (non bait side/outside down) on the griddle then I rub a bit of worm oil on the lami plate where the plastic will touch the cavities. As I heat my plastic I prepare my clamp(s) and place my nozzles nose down on the griddle roughly 30-60sec before shooting. Add my glitter/pearl to the plastic, clamp, add nozzle to injector, suck and shoot. After about a minute or so I remove the clamp(s), removing the lami plate without the baits moving and remove it from the mold then removing the runner, then placing the mold closed with the plastic side down (be it backs on the wutz-it) back on to the griddle. Heat up color(s)(2,3,4) and removing the mold right before the last ding on the micro, clamping it and suck and shoot.
I keep the griddle at 250-255 degrees while shooting lami's, but when doing solid colors I keep it @ 350 using it to keep the Pyrex a touch hotter than if it was on the work bench and also heating my injectors.
Found that removing the nozzles keeps the O-rings from swelling and becoming a pain in the rump. When placing them on the griddle nose down for 30-60sec it allows the nozzle to heat up without the O-ring swelling to the point of having to smack the nozzle into the injector to get it to fit.
When my injectors are on the griddle I first place them nose down on a flat surface (usually a lami plate) then pushing the rod down till the piston becomes flush with the surface then slowly pulling it back up 1-2 inches away from it, thus allowing the piston to be heated without massive swelling/rubbing of the O-rings.
After I started doing this I have been able to almost double my production out of an 8oz batch due to not having a .5"-1" plug between my nozzle and piston (works 10x better at 350 but not for lami's).
Hope this helps,
Drew
*EDIT*
~Also, placing a mold wide open on the griddle @ 250-255 and laying baits in while you heat up your clear then removing them, sticking eyes on and dipping has made the clear dip bond 10x stronger, no peeling/lifting or falling off. It also helps those little eyes stay in place from my fat fingers moving the baits around before the plunge into the clear.~
-
Wow!!! That is a lot of manipulation.
I was also told that heat above 300 will warp the molds plus cause pitting.
Wont even know as i wont heat my molds.
Jim
-
How hot does a mold in constant use get??? (now there's a good use for those IR thermometers!)
-
If heat above 300 degrees would warp your molds then how could you shoot back to back to back? 350 degree plastic will heat a mold past 300, I have a trick worm mold that I have hit with the IR and clocked it @ 328 when running consecutive shots over and over. Just cant see how they could use aluminum if it had such a low "flash point", allowing a liquid into it @ 350. Seems a bit off to me.
Drew
*EDIT*
The trick mold is a lot thinner than a CCM mold, I will not mention where it's from but you probably already know lol.
-
How hot does a mold in constant use get??? (now there's a good use for those IR thermometers!)
I clocked mine on the outside after the last shot out of an 8oz batch. The true test would be to take a single cavity mold and shoot it rather fast through 8oz and then measure the temp of the cavity itself. I am no scientist, but 350 degrees over and over in aluminum would seem to bring something higher than 300. Now I am going to go beat the snot out of my Flipster mold with some remelts!
Drew
-
Shoot 1000 that way and let me know. Seems the mold would not have time to cool between rounds at all and will remain at far higher than nornal temps for a longer period.
Jusy FYI on the bait situation. I won't heat my injectors or molds with other than with plastic in the chance that damage can occur via heating.
Jim
-
If heat above 300 degrees would warp your molds then how could you shoot back to back to back? 350 degree plastic will heat a mold past 300, I have a trick worm mold that I have hit with the IR and clocked it @ 328 when running consecutive shots over and over. Just cant see how they could use aluminum if it had such a low "flash point", allowing a liquid into it @ 350. Seems a bit off to me.
The other part of the experiment would be to shoot the mold after a minute or so to see how it cooled off vs sitting on a 300 griddle and no cool off between.
No doubt that the cavity will cool regardless of how many times you shoot it when you de-mold and prep for your next round if not on a constant heat source.
I worry about heat as it is since heat is the enemy of production injection.
Jim
PS After some quick reading, the issue is heating aluminum WITHOUT anything in it. With a substance in the aluminum, heat is not an issue. That may have been what the mold makers were talking about that warned me of the heating on the griddle.
-
I was told; heating a mold could warp it.? True or not? How hot are you heating your molds?
Aluminum melts at 1220 degrees. It won't warp on it's own until over 1000 degrees. The question is what happens when high temps (greater than 500 degrees, but less than 1000 degrees) and pressure is involved... I'm not sure, but don't believe it is relevant at 250 degrees. Every day cooking items are aluminum and subjected to 500 degree temps with no ill effect. The key is to find a balance as it can impact production as Jim pointed out.
When thing slow down some Alex and I will heat some scrap up and see what happens when subjected to pressure.
Jason
-
Wonder why aluminum pots and pans warp and bend?
Jim
-
Not made of the same aluminum. I'm guessing. Car engines this days are made out of aluminum. I don't remember what the temp is in the combustion chamber around the head. But it's very hot. They handle it very good. Unless. Your wife runs it out of water and runs until it won't pull it self anymore.
-
Exactly, no fluid or food or plastic is bad for aluminum.
Jim
-
I think. Your molds. Will handle a lot more then you think. One reason is how thick they are. I'll try something tonight with the torch and tape it. If I can get to the shop.
-
LOL Justin, Jim the thickness, age and tensile strength of the alloy have a lot to do with the warping process. T6 can't be heated as high as you can heat a 7000 series aluminum, the pots/pans also go through different situations than a ally plate that only touches the same one/two things. Jim don't think I was trying to turn this into an argument nor say you were wrong I am just the type of person to research and get in some trial and error.
The main problem I can see with full on production such as "ZOOM" would be with the molds being at extremely high temps for long hours without some form of cooling would make it so the molds would not produce a bait but instead some form of booger like creature that was half liquid. From the research I have done today on "uphill quenching, glycol quenching, water quenching, stress relief, residual stresses, heat treatment" of aluminum you will find that the thickness of a plate that is 1/8" thicker than the other can be heated 3% hotter for 5% longer with only that 1/8" thickness difference. Also the temps for "stress relief" of aluminum are pretty crazy.
http://www.croucher.us/articles/distortion-control-with-uphill-quenching (http://www.croucher.us/articles/distortion-control-with-uphill-quenching)
^Great Read^
That link leads you to a huge list of amazing facts that are basically useless to the average person, but for a tinker such as myself I was glued. Just learning something I didn't know about an alloy that I touch on a daily basis was fascinating.
Jim did my PM go through? For some reason every few weeks my forum PM's don't come or go. ???
Drew
-
I just like to use a torch. Plus. I think I have a old brake rotor off of my racecar. That's I can torch to see how much it can handle. I love fire and smoke.
-
Pots and pans warp due to uneven heating and cooling ...and cheap aluminum!!!
Throw an ice cube into a cheap aluminum pan and see what happens.....throw it into an expensive one...no effect (other than my Son throwing a total fit for messing with his expensive pans!)
You don't warp molds by heating them....you warp by cooling them unevenly. That is part of the problem of living up here in the north land. Aluminum block engines can have some real issues if they go from hot to -20 or less in a hurry! Plays hell on bridges on a cold...but sunny days too! One side of the bridge is being heating by the sun...the other side is sitting in -20....
My point about how hot does a mold get was just what was reported. They get very hot...hotter than the 250 or so the griddle was keeping them. I absolutely must keep my molds on the griddle during the winter...or they cool so fast I get no production out of them (if I have a window open).
The other point (and I'll ask our Elastomer PhD about this) is that Elastomers (and PVC is considered an elastomer...although a fairly poor one) is that they have a number of "states" that are temperature dependent that affect a number of things. Obviously a cold elastomer can be fairly stiff...while that same elastomer at a higher temperature is more flexible. That also affects it's ability to adhere to other surfaces, vulcanizate and a host of other physical and chemical characteristics that I won't pretend to understand.
I think what Dr. Rabbe will tell me is that the warmer the elastomer ...the more likely it is to bond with itself or other substrates (actually I know that is what he will say because I've seen his workshop presentation a few dozen times!!!). So...if the the PVC in the mold ....is warm...to hot...it will bond better with itself when the 2nd shot comes in.
By the way ...if you don't believe that temperature makes a difference with an elastomer (rubber based)...come check out my frozen flat tires this winter if it gets to -25 or so. Darn things will freeze flat on the ground side at about -25 to -30 and you have to drive really slow to "warm" them up until the "go round"!!!! Makes a really nice bump...bump sound! Bet you guys down south didn't know that!!!! :o
Good discussion on this issue...I'm learning a lot...of things I'm doing wrong!
-
The presto pots and electric skillets or griddles, are made of aluminum. I have a cheapy griddle that is warped a little, and a name brand one that is nice and flat. I think the alloys used in the aluminum help with this since most are an eighth to three sixteenths thick. Same when I'm welding, gotta be careful on the thin stuff so it doesn't warp, crank the amps up on the thick stuff. I don't think that heating on a griddle would warp a mold, because of the thickness of the mold, but I don't want to find out either. Seems like the second or third shot on a mold makes the perfect bait, with out waiting too long to demold. After that they take longer as the mold heats up, as Jim mentioned.To each his own, we all have our tricks that work for us
-
Sorry, I didn't mention anything about the original post. On my laminates, hand pour then inject, I have to use a heat gun if it's not done very quickly. I inject as soon as possible after pouring, or mine peel apart like string cheese. Still, I usually hit the open side with a heat gun til it just starts to melt (maybe ten seconds), slap the mold together and shoot. Solved my string cheese laminate issues. I need a twinjector.
-
another variable might be the plastic people are using? ???
Is everyone using CCM and having these issues?
when I do bellies i use to have the issue but as long as the bellies are at least room temp (70*) and keep the injecting plastic on the hot side is helps alot with the peeling
-
I use ccm and shot the second color at 350 when I had the issue. I don't warm my molds as long as drew does or go as in depth but via his instruction I created my own process. I put the open mold on the griddle at maybe 200 degrees just long enough to pull the runner off and setup my second color. I think every 10 degrees or so difference in the plastic of the first color makes the second hot 350 degree shot that much more effective at making the bond even deeper/stronger. Just like I warm my Molds a tad before the first shot of my ribbon tails and swim frys to make sure the tails fill out. I think that little bit of heat slows the curing process making the plastic flow/bond better. In my opinion just making the molds warm to the touch can make a difference. My two cents lol.
-
I'm with 412 on this. I pour some bellies on the swim shads and the wuzs. I always inject the top layer at a higher temp. They bod together great and I haven't had any issues with baits coming apart.
-
Thanks for all the info guys. Very interesting topic and information for sure. I still am certain I will never heat my molds on anything as the heat from injecting them is more than I want anyway. Injectors either as they are far thinner than a mold.
After reading these processes I am surprised to hear all that is going into making laminate baits. If it took me that long or I had to manipulate things that much, I would rarely make them. Just to much time involved for sure. Especially wait times for de-molding. If your molds are at a constant higher temp, you have to wait longer for the plastisol to cure.
Not to mention all the extra power that is being used by the power hungry griddles. But if you have to, you have to. :D
Jim
-
Thanks for bringing this up Jim, before I left on vacation, I was scratching my head on this very issue. Pouring large open pour swimbaits, I would get separation on the colors even with the next color above 360. The only way I've gotten around it is if I pour the next color shortly right after but this does not leave a nice clean line especially at the wide parts of the swimbait. I think I will try a heat gun onto a finish bait to see if it helps when I get back.
-
Outside the heat thing, I'll say this- I'm with Jim on all that manipulation- no problem when making baits for your own use or buddies, but for large orders from shops or pros, etc., the time factor is sometimes what separates inquiries from orders. ;) (plus, if you are like me, the less steps involved the better since more steps for me = more of a chance to hurt myself! ;D
As usual, we all do things differently(which is what keeps us all interested- otherwise we couldn't stand each other :P). I won't heat my molds either, of course its a hundred degrees all summer, and in the dead of winter we rarely see freezing temps anyway but that's neither here nor there :). I do heat my injectors just to around 150 degrees or so to warm them up in the morning instead of taking the time to heat scrap plastic then shooting them to warm them.
I have had issues a time or two on laminates pulling apart, but it was only when I was going too fast and not paying attention to temps. I have also noticed, personally, if the baits aren't allowed to cure long enough, the bond seems to be much weaker. I have seen a few folks online that pour, then immediately bag their baits! (Jim- I wonder if your buddy got some of those?) There's just what's in my head right now anyway.
p.s. ...can I just say once again how I LOVE the fact we can have differences of opinions and not start slapping hate on each other? I LOVE IT! This is pretty rare in a public forum there days. Thanks everyone for making that a reality, and thanks Jason for policing it!
-
I still think we should sue Jason.
-
For?
-
I'm with Denny. It's Jason fault again.
Ha ha.
-
"For?"
Money
-
"For?"
Money
Hahahaha, but if we sue then he might not produce molds anymore and I am not ok with that. Not to mention I can't find better customer service. I can always make more money.
Drew
-
"For?"
Money
You can't squeeze blood from a turnip!
I thought they taught that in law 101.
:D
-
mmmmmmmmm turnips
-
I prefer carrots & turnips boiled together, strain add in some butter and smash em up mmmm
Drew
-
All in fun.
-
All in fun.
X2
-
What? No turnips? :P :P
-
I thought they taught that in law 101.
:D
.......WHOA, wait a minute......are you implying Denny went to college? :P
-
LOL! And yes, Mr. Denny Sir...all in fun...
-
Its been my experience with aluminum that it warps do to thermal shock just like exploding pyrex i.e. an aluminum pot/pan heated to a high temp and a cool/cold liquid applied to it so I would venture to guess that if you heat your molds by either putting them on a griddle or just the heat from injection it would not be wise to lay it on a cool/cold surface. Yell at the wife all the time about washing the fry pans before there cooled off :o