Custom Baits - Forum
Soft Plastic Bait Making => Getting Started / Customer Support => Topic started by: CrabbyBass on 12/31/12 09:03 UTC
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I know this subject has been beat to death, but wanted to start this topic again. I bought a twinjector and have been having issues with it. At first I was getting really good looking lures out of it. I have been working on a batch of black and chartreuse and nothing seems to be working out for me. The colors are running together. After reading through the forums, I thought maybe I was shooting the plastic too hot. I bought a IR thermometer yesterday to make sure I was shooting around the 320 people recommended. I tried it out last night. One cup was at 320 and the other was 316. I injected and the same thing happened. I was looking at some of the other lures I have made that came out good and noticed that the colors did in fact run together on those, but the colors were lighter, so you cannot tell. Is it harder to get a good looking laminate with the twinjector with dark colors? Could my molds be the issue? I am trying to shoot the Wittle Wutz and 3.5" swim shad. Does anyone have any other suggestions? Thanks in advance!
Chuck
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First problem (yes...I know I beat this to death....) but get rid of the IR thermometer! There are a bunch of posts why...and the recommended thermometer for Amazon. Bottom line...the IR only tells you the skin temperature...and is not very accurate. It may read 320 on the skin...but if you used a digital thermometer you could actually be pouring significantly higher (significantly!!!!).
2nd...shoot super slow!
I shoot laminates with both those molds without issues....but I keep my temp really low....and I measure with a digital thermometer (and stir) to make sure the entire batch is a uniform temperature.
And yes...I suspect you always get some mixing at the boundary layer, that is especially noticeable with such contrasting colors. You could try to let your plastic cool to the lowest temperature you can inject (which for me seems to be about 300)...but then you run into clogging issues and poor flow.
Also.. hand pouring the bottom....then inject the top....or if hand pour isn't your thing...and you really want to use those contrasting colors...I think you'll have to go to a laminate plate.
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Thanks for the info Andy! My buddy thought the same thing about the surface temp VS the temp of the under layers. I assumed it had to be pretty close to uniform if you mix it up and take the temp right away. Maybe I am shooting too fast. I shoot at a moderate speed, but will slow it down and see if that helps.
I have the laminate plate, but am trying to double my output with the twinjector. I am not expecting to get the super clean seam as I do with the plate, but would like it to be cleaner than it is coming out now.
Thanks again Andy!
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Andy is right about the skin temp with IR thermometers. It is not just skin temp with IR. There are many other issues with reflection and other technical details of measuring IR that affect its ability to accurately measure surface temp with a simple gun style meter. The more expensive equipment $5000 and up take thousands of points of measurement over a field of view. So, go with the digital thermometer and that will get you closer to a true temp.
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I alway use the IR gun when stirring. An exact temp is not important just a level to compare when it works. Working with plastic that is cooling from the top can be misleading. Mt best laminates come out between 300 and 310. 320 and i get what you are talking about. The temp gauge would be great if you could stir with it or it just gets in the way. Drastic color differences are a real challenge. I know you know by now that if you want to shoot laminates out if the Twinjector is is important to know the temps. Good luck. Frank
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I leave my cups off of the heat while i stir them to get them to cool down then i put them on my griddle when they are ready to let me get a few shots out of them. When they are ready (atleast for me) when i check it won't be like a syrup but but it gets to where it would be too thick to hand pour with/starts to barely stack (hope that makes sense) but its is still pretty workable.Also dont really plunge down on it let the injector do its thing,ive found on some stuff if i used too much my line between the 2 colors mess up some
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Thanks DobynsTriton! I think I have to work in my injector some. I was watching one of Frank's videos and saw how he was able to inject with one hand. There is no way I am able to use mine with one hand. It is way too stiff. I read up and am going to try a couple of things to smooth it out. I loosened the caps on the tubes and also the left the plastic from my last injection in it. I will try it out tonight. Thanks again!
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Just to satisfy my own curiosity Andy. Do you think the ir would not work with a presto and a stirring system? The plastic is always moving till you turn it off to get a reading. It's got to be more than accurate for that.
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Also, I have a cheap digital thermo from wally world, it's sloooowww to get a reading. Is yours fast?
Sorry Crabbybass, didn't mean to high jack your thread.
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It takes a 6-8 seconds... In my research to get one that is instant is big $$.
My Daughter is a microbiologist and this thermometer is the one she uses in her lab and it has to be NSF approved... which this one is.
I also use it to stir my plastic... Being careful not to whip in air bubbles! But I normally only heat 4oz at a time. If I'm heading a large amount I use a stainless steel spoon.
FYI: She cannot use an IR because they are not accurate enough. Likewise, in the factory we only use IR thermometers to measure temperatures of metal equipment... Any measurement of plastic or materials is done with digital thermometers.
IR's only measure skin temperatures and can misread due to color (reflective vs absorbing) material composition and density (it will measure metal better than a liquid).
How many IR thermometers do you see Professional Chiefs using?
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I do not get what I am doing wrong here. I went through and read the other threads and changed things that I was doing and I am still having issues. I thought maybe the top half fills up before the bottom half so the top plastic fills in the voids and swirls with the bottom color. I tried rotating the blending block so the bottom color would point more towards the injection ports, but that didn't work either. This is what I am getting:
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad69/cubfanatic77/IMG_2895_zps1f177b7a.jpg)
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad69/cubfanatic77/IMG_2894_zpsfe2815e9.jpg)
I am about to go back to the laminate plates. Can anyone offer some advice please or post pics of Wutz-its you have shot with a twinjector. Thank you!
Chuck
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Where's Ghost Baits when we need him???
He's Da' Man on Twin Injectors.
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Nice color combo. I bet the fish will hit it as is.
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Thanks pjmcla! I am sure they will still hit it, but I am looking for a cleaner laminate line. I am gong to try again tonight, but will probably go back to the laminate plates until I can figure it out. Thanks again!
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The best solution for your problem would be to send any that blend together to me. LOL ;D I don't use a Twinjector yet, but I plan to in the future so I'm interested in the actual solution to this problem. I know my solution wasn't very helpful LOL. I really like the blended version of that color though. I think it makes it more realistic looking.
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this might sound funny but how far are you putting the injectors in the cup & are u pushing some out back into the cup?I try to only put mine in far enough to come up to the textured part of the nozzles then push out a little to make sure both colors come out at the same time
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I'm sticking with too hot. What temperature are you shooting at? Since this bait does not have small appendages I would suggest you go as cool as you can. Probably about 310 or 320.
Shoot very very slowly and with very very very low pressure. Try using just a couple fingers to gently fill the mold.
It sure looks like to me you are filling the mold to quickly.
Do you have some other variables going on here? For example, are you using softener? Worm oil? CCM Medium plastic?
You are using the bar across the top of the injectors...correct? This helps make sure you are applying the same pressure to both injectors.
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After looking at that picture, I tend to agree with Andy. Too hot- I had the same issue when I first got my Twin, I was shooting too hot, and putting way too much pressure on the injectors.
Get your plastic up to temp, then let it SIT. Get it as cool as you can and play with it. You should be able to inject at 305-310, and at that temp the colors won't tend to blend, and the viscosity is less so if you are a natural heavy handed one, it will be less of an issue for you there. Try it and post some pics. Together, we will get this handled.
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I really appreciate all the feedback. I will go out and try it again tonight. I will take all of your suggestions and post how it goes. My injector is not so smooth yet so when injecting I put both hands on both injectors and push down slowly. Maybe this is screwing things up. I just cleaned out the injectors to see if it smooths them out and it is still a little sticky. @ DobynsTriton, I do not inject back into the cup, but it makes perfect sense. I will give that a try as well. Thanks again guys! You are all awesome!
By the way Josh, I will be sure to send you ALL of my rejects. :P Ya right! ;D
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let us know how it goes!
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Putting a lot of pressure on an injector with 300+ degree plastic is a significant safety hazard!
Take the injectors apart and make sure they are clean and then lube the friction surfaces with worm oil. Also, make sure the connectors are not too tight and causing binding. If you can't get to inject with very little pressure...send them back and ask for BT to check them and/or replace.
Really....needing to put ''pressure'' on your injectors...is really...really ... dangerous.
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One of the reasons the walls on the Bass-tackle twinjector are as thick as they are is due to the amount of pressure you can apply via the middle brace. This can cause some binding if you get over zealous on tightening. Don't ask how I know this ;). Cleaning / worm oil before use as Andy says. It looks as though your Green is wrapping around the pearl. Viscosity differences can be at least a partial culprit here. I really like heavy pearl bellies and a transparent back will wrap if you don't watch your technique real close ( even on my small baits ).
You are used to seeing those razor clean lines that the laminate plate is capable of producing which is difficult to obtain with a twinjector especially with differing viscosity colors.
One of the things that really impressed me about some of the DD gill picture postings was how clean the laminate lines were; but this bait is an almost perfect 50 / 50 down the middle mold with no internal obstructions (I. E. no hook slot, belly bulge ).
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Thanks again guys! I took the injector apart and cleaned out the plastic remnants in there. I put worm oil on the o-rings and also the plunger shafts that come through the top cap. I make sure the caps are loose. It still binds up a little bit. There is no way I can inject with only one hand. Maybe I will give BT a call.
I am 100% convinced I am not going to get a clean looking laminate with the twinjector on the Wittle Wutz. It is just not going to happen. No matter what I do or try, nothing works. I tried letting the plastic cool down, same issue. I went even cooler, same issue. I tried turning the blending block, same issue. I even tried making the bottom color hotter than the top, same issue. Back to the laminate plate it is. I tried other molds and had no issue at all. By the way, I was able to come up with a pretty cool color combo by mixing up used plastic.
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad69/cubfanatic77/photo3_zpsc0bad673.jpg)
I hope no one wants that bottom color, because I have no idea what is all in it. :)
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mine does that too on swimshads. i think its because top/bottom it has too much area to fill.
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YOu can get a clean lam. when you are injecting. Your top color may be a tad hotter than the bottom color. Also. It looks as if you have uneven flow rate into your mold. The green ran over the pearl. 1. Because a tad hotter than pearl and 2. Because uneven flow rate. Also how are you clamping the wuz-it?
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YOu can get a clean lam. when you are injecting. Your top color may be a tad hotter than the bottom color. Also. It looks as if you have uneven flow rate into your mold. The green ran over the pearl. 1. Because a tad hotter than pearl and 2. Because uneven flow rate. Also how are you clamping the wuz-it?
The swim shad mold will always have a dip into the belly if you do not pour it in first due to the large drop in the mold. I prefer to pour the belly in and shoot it with a single color to fill the top/tail section of the mold. If I am doing a vein shot or 3+ colors then I will break out the blending block. I will be posting some pics shortly to show what I am talking about.
Drew
EDIT:No lami plate used on this, don't think I could pour it any closer without going over. I will get some swim shad pics up soon, I will break out the camera and not use the phone. I have finally mastered the skinny vein Swim Shad for those of you that have seen my skinny vein Wutz-it. Pics to come soon.
(http://www.caneycreekmolds.net/gallery/medium_469-040113074738.jpeg)
The back and vein both have .015 Canadian Blue and the belly is pure pearl, no powders/hi-lights.
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I am happy with the way the swim shad turned out. The colors are separate and it looks fairly clean. That dip in the middle does not bother me in the least. It is that darn wittle wutz that is driving me insane. I took some to work to show people and they said it doesn't bother them in the least.
biglewers, I am clamping with a Irwin 6" XP Quickgrip clamp. I messed around doing different things and even tried making the bottom color hotter than the top and the same thing happened. I think it is the mold.
Nice shot Drew! That looks awesome! I am going to have to try handpouring the belly and using the twinjector for the top.
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Thanks again guys! I took the injector apart and cleaned out the plastic remnants in there. I put worm oil on the o-rings and also the plunger shafts that come through the top cap. I make sure the caps are loose. It still binds up a little bit. There is no way I can inject with only one hand. Maybe I will give BT a call.
I am 100% convinced I am not going to get a clean looking laminate with the twinjector on the Wittle Wutz. It is just not going to happen. No matter what I do or try, nothing works. I tried letting the plastic cool down, same issue. I went even cooler, same issue. I tried turning the blending block, same issue. I even tried making the bottom color hotter than the top, same issue. Back to the laminate plate it is. I tried other molds and had no issue at all. By the way, I was able to come up with a pretty cool color combo by mixing up used plastic.
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad69/cubfanatic77/photo3_zpsc0bad673.jpg)
I hope no one wants that bottom color, because I have no idea what is all in it. :)
The blend on this lam looks VERY realistic, CrabbyB. Fish in the wild usually don't have perfect lines anyway. ;D
Go with it!
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Thank you Shawn! I am happy with it too!
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I have a fluke style mold from Bears with the hook slot. I can't get a clean lami with it either. So far it's the only mold of mine that I can't shoot.
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A hook slot ( especially ), or any other mold bulge ( belly ) or choke point will impact how the plastic flows into the mold. This will inherently create a vortex spot. ( Like smoke in the wind tunnel going over a car top or plane wing ). Add to that the differing viscosity of transparent versus pearl colors.
Some molds, due to their design, will not lend themselves to a really clean twin-jector laminate. If you look at the DD gill mold; it is almost a perfect mirror image mold between the halves; and that is reflected in the really clean laminates that several have posted pictures of. But; I don't think many fish care nearly as much about clean laminate lines as I do.
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A hook slot ( especially ), or any other mold bulge ( belly ) or choke point will impact how the plastic flows into the mold. This will inherently create a vortex spot. ( Like smoke in the wind tunnel going over a car top or plane wing ). Add to that the differing viscosity of transparent versus pearl colors.
Some molds, due to their design, will not lend themselves to a really clean twin-jector laminate. If you look at the DD gill mold; it is almost a perfect mirror image mold between the halves; and that is reflected in the really clean laminates that several have posted pictures of. But; I don't think many fish care nearly as much about clean laminate lines as I do.
The Wittle Wutz has a hook slot so that may be the cause of my issue. As you said as the plastic goes over the slot it swirls the plastic. The lure at least come out pretty consistent. Back to the lami plate it is!!!
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Here you go guys, this is the skinny vein in the Swim Shad. Hope you like it, bad pic but it was the only one that really showed the vein. This vein is the width of a stick pin.
(http://www.caneycreekmolds.net/gallery/469-060113142618.jpeg)
Drew
PS: No lami plate, no foil no crazy additions. This was mold/injectors/blending block/griddle.
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I know it seems you tried everything but try warming up the blending block to hot temp and warm up the Twinjector. Get the temps as low as you can and try again. In the pic the green is to hot so try and get the belly a little hotter. Slow and steady with the pressure should get you the results you want. The Twinjector should be smoother with them warm and the block hot. Loosen the tops of the injectors, one of the knobs and turn the shafts of the plungers about 1/8 of a turn. This should smooth out the unit. Use it more and it will smooth out.
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Nice job on the thin vein Drew! Your pic is a little blurry, but I can still see it.
Thanks for the tips Frank! I went back to using the lami plate for that mold for now. I will practice again as I go through my remelts.