Custom Baits - Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: CrabbyBass on 03/22/13 13:50 UTC
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Have to get this site going again! Posts have been few lately. Anyway, I made the jump to CCM plastic. We were using another company's plastic and have been really happy with it. After hearing all these great things about the CCM plastic we decided to switch. I ordered it on Weds and it arrived today while I was home for lunch. I wanted to pop it open and run a batch, but I contained myself. LOL! I also ordered a pound of the HD additive. I cannot wait to try out both products tonight.
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I don't anticipate any disappointment from you. I do suggest that you rotate the box before each use to make sure you don't have any separation within the formula. This stuff is super clear! CCM plastisol is the top of the line in my book.
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dont forget heat stabilizer :) itll keep the plastic happy when working with bigger batches
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Ya, I cannot wait to try it out. The stuff I have been using works great, but it smokes and smells a lot. Hoping the CCM will not smoke or smell as bad.
DobynsTriton, Good point about the heat stabilizer. I have some, but don't use it as often as I should. I work with smaller batches as I am making a bunch of custom stuff for guys. A bag of this color and a bag of that color. Wilks19 has the big CCM injector and works with the big batches of colors. He is a workhorse when it comes to guys ordering big quantities of a certain color. I am going to have to teach him how to do what I do and he is going to have to teach me what he does.
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I've used plastic from four sources and the CCM Crystal Clear is tops. I used on from another company and the neighbors though the garage was on fire when I had the door open to get rid of the smoke.
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Best move I ever made when I went to CCM plastic! Very easy to use and better finished product. Bob
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Thanks Crabbybass. I do want to learn your techniques and plan on doing that soon. Once we get these orders out, that is my mission. I also want to master that twin injector as that sucker is sexy. As far as the "big batches", I love doing those. I enjoy making a bunch of plastic and having 12-15 molds ready to be injected.
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I don't anticipate any disappointment from you. I do suggest that you rotate the box before each use to make sure you don't have any separation within the formula. This stuff is super clear! CCM plastisol is the top of the line in my book.
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Want to play devils advocate here. I have had problems with it yellowing way to fast lately. I use it to dip heads of baits after putting on eyes and lately it yellows fast. I can't even use it for that now. Funny thing is I use the one that bubbles a lot to do the dipping. Heat it let it set and reheat. Will stay clears for an hour or so now. The cc only stay clear for about 30 minutes max. Any body else have this happen? Frank
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Frank.....
I guess I've seen some issues of this nature but then I don't do a whole lot of eyes.
When this jumped up at me I just juiced the dip plastic up with stabilizer and then heated the new plastic only to 340 degrees ans spent time after this heating stirring the plastic well so I didn't have any "white" plastic at the bottom and on the sides of the cup. I let this plastic rest long enough that I could lift the mass and flip it over in the cup and then I reheated it slowlyand in increments, I usually would see one side of the plastic go liquid before the rest and on that side I had a sufficient puddle of clear to do my dipping. Some of these cups of plastic went for ten or 12 reheats before I noticed any yellowing at all.
I am using a 4 ounce cup too. The smaller batching is easier for me to control the melt rate, etc. I think you are maybe doing larger batches and dipping larger baits. Still I think toying with some options might help out Frank.
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I have had the same experience as CTOM. I now won't go with more than 4 oz. Larger batches are just too hard to get even heating across the plastic. I also will pre-heat my cup in the microwwave which seems to help a little
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The only time my dipping plastic sees 350 is on the initial cook. After that I stop as soon as I get a puddle to dip in and that is usually right around the 320 degree mark using a shoot and read digital. The plastic will continue to heat AFTER it comes out of the mw and I suspect that for many this is where problems with yellowing plastic fall, they don't take into account the continued cooking.
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This happens in a 100 cc beaker. After first heating it just yellows. The temp stays at 310 while on the griddle. Not to hot and the other plastic is in the same container. It does not matter if the batches are big or little. But when I first got the plastic it did not do this.
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That's weird Frank. I'm haven't a clue. I don't have issues at all as long as I watch my heat closely.
I just added some gold hi lite to a small amount of clear that had yellowed just a wee bit and used it in some nbelly color on a split color shot. Worked great for that but that same clear plastic had been re-heated/re-melted like 15 times before I noticed any yellowing and even then its was slight.
I'm doing an 1100 watt mw and cook, re-heat, re-melt everything on high and just adjust the length of time it is under fire.
Hot spot on the grill surface you aren't aware of, maybe?
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I have had the CCM (Do-It) plastic for about a week now. Wilks19 and I have been using it and have been pleased with it. I am going to have to get used to that new smell though. It is not awful, but it is a different smell than I am used to when making lures. When you get used to a smell you hardly notice it after a while, but then when you bring in something with a new smell, you surely notice it. Plus I have a nose like a dog, so the difference in smell is more evident to me. :) It seems to me the CCM (Do-It) plastic sets quicker than the one I was previously using. Seems like the skin forms faster and you can demold quicker. This is a good thing. It helps when hand pouring because then I am not wasting time waiting as long for the plastic to set to close the mold and inject. One thing I did notice is that the lures come out more dull with the CCM (Do-It) plastic. I took a pic to show the difference between the two. The lure using CCM (Do-It) plastic is on the right.
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad69/cubfanatic77/photo1-2_zps95245649.jpg)
Anyway, this is my review for now. I am sure I will find more positives as I use it more.
Chuck
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This happens in a 100 cc beaker. After first heating it just yellows. The temp stays at 310 while on the griddle. Not to hot and the other plastic is in the same container. It does not matter if the batches are big or little. But when I first got the plastic it did not do this.
Frank
Are you saying that when you first started you had no problems but are now having issues with the same plastic out of the same container? Maybe there has been some type of settling or separation happening?
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I definitely see the difference Crabby. Usually mine are shinier with ccm. The dipped head though, looks shinier than anything else on the one using ccm plastic. Weird..... I wonder what made it dull. Never had that problem so I have no advice. Bet some fellers on here can give you some ideas though. Joey
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Maybe a wipe down of the mold will help I know salt will tend to cause a mold to loose some of its sheen try some worm oil in the cavities.
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This happens in a 100 cc beaker. After first heating it just yellows. The temp stays at 310 while on the griddle. Not to hot and the other plastic is in the same container. It does not matter if the batches are big or little. But when I first got the plastic it did not do this.
Frank,
You are NOT crazy!!! :D :D I noted this with my second box of CCM. I cooked 8oz, dipped a few baits, went in for a drink and came back out to some pretty yellow-brown plastic. Temperature was actually cooling during this time and was perfectly clear after removal from the microwave. 340 was max temp I had.
I reported this immediately. Had the same issue repeat itself and had to move to a different product for dipping due to the issue.
Jim
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PS Color changed rapidly. Bet I wasn't in house for 2 minutes, plastic was still liquid.
I was able to repeat the experiment while watching the cup. Purplosely only heated to 320 on one round and then with another cup 350. Temperature didn't matter. Near 2 minutes or so, the plastic yellowed evey time.
Jim
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I definitely see the difference Crabby. Usually mine are shinier with ccm. The dipped head though, looks shinier than anything else on the one using ccm plastic. Weird..... I wonder what made it dull. Never had that problem so I have no advice. Bet some fellers on here can give you some ideas though. Joey
I used some leftover clear plastic to dip the heads on these which is why it is so shiny over the rest of the lure. Not a huge deal though. Maybe I do have to wipe out the molds. Thanks guys!
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I too have had trouble with the plastic yellowing at a very fast rate. The first time I used it to dip the heads , past the eyes on my swimbaits, I thought I had found the plastic that I was looking for. The plastic I have been using before I bought the CCM was very cloudy, made the eyes on my baits look terrible. But with the CCM turning yellow soo, fast I will have to keep looking for a plastic that will stay clear.
I did not over heat the plastic, and I did rotate the box.
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Frank
Are you saying that when you first started you had no problems but are now having issues with the same plastic out of the same container? Maybe there has been some type of settling or separation happening?
That is exactly what I am saying. Not at first but now it does. Jim glad to hear I am not crazy but I can't use the plastic for dipping either. Have a whole bunch of it on the table that I am going to mix in with a dark color. Did talk to another company about this and he just laughed and said it not that easy to make plastic and some people just have to learn. Would not tell me why it happens but said they too had to learn the hard way. When this product came out it was great but as time goes on it does not seam so great. Frank
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And I thought it was just me rushing things.
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That is exactly what I am saying. Not at first but now it does. Jim glad to hear I am not crazy but I can't use the plastic for dipping either. Have a whole bunch of it on the table that I am going to mix in with a dark color. Did talk to another company about this and he just laughed and said it not that easy to make plastic and some people just have to learn. Would not tell me why it happens but said they too had to learn the hard way. When this product came out it was great but as time goes on it does not seam so great. Frank
You are not alone i have stopped buying ccm plastic for the moment for this very reason. Over December January i bought quite a few 5 gallon lots and have noticed a significant change in the plastic. It dosnt last in my pots for any length of time, i have found it to yelllow and lose the "vibrant" colour very quickly even with (and without) excess stabilizer at all temperature ranges.
I have layed off CCM plastic in the hope that it was only a bad batch and not a change in the recipe as i need the CLEAR plastic for alot of my glass recipes.
Would like to hear from Jerry on this one as it was a fantastic product and i would like to know if anything has changed.
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I got a pint and tried it...same here.
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I saw a change in CC stabilizer around the time mentioned...it was clear, the last I received was an amber color. Caught some flak from a couple guys on forum but had couple others pm me (they didn't want to go public...hmmm?) and say they had same problem. Not sure if that's a big issue, probably is with lighter colors.
"denial ain't just a river in Egypt"...believing that Do-It is the type of company that gets errors corrected!
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In defense of Do-It, they dont know there is an issue unless you tell them and give specifics. They may need a sample as well.
I would get with customer service via email and have details such as cook temps, additives, etc. I do not use stabilizer but there is a chance it is the stabilizer or other additive and not the plastic.
Jim
Jim
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Folks,
First off, thanks to everyone for your participation on this forum and for all of you that do business with us.
I’d like to take to opportunity to address a few items.
First, we have not changed any formulations of any of the plastisol, additives or colorants. It is our belief that Jason developed the finest raw materials on the market. We have no interest in modifying the quality or cost of any of the products that have been offered in the past. We stand by these products and our desire is to only expand on these top shelf items.
We are selling more and more Crystal Clear Plastisol by the week and continue to get great reviews. I think that speaks for itself. Is it possible that there can be an issue with any of these offerings? Absolutely. That is why we test every drum and lot number before it becomes available to the public. Not only do we test it, but we also are shooting every single mold that is manufactured with the same raw goods. We have the utmost confidence in what we sell, but it is still possible for product to get shipped out of our warehouse that does not meet the quality that we expect.
Another thing to understand is that all end users are not shooting softs baits in a laboratory. The same product can respond differently in different environments. Everyone’s personal shop set up and production processes vary and different room temperature and humidity can have an impact on what the end user is trying to do. Understanding each specific situation is beneficial in coming up with a solution to any issues that may be experienced.
Most importantly, if you are experiencing any issues we want to here from you. We want you to be satisfied with your purchase. One thing that would be a slight change from Jason B’s ownership is that we would like to work through these issue over the phone or via email. We will always answer the phone between 8:00 am and 4:30pm central time Monday - Friday. If that does not work for your schedule, we are happy to respond via email.
The last thing I would like to address is the overall forum decorum. Even though I do not spend as much time on here as many of you, I do recognize a bit more friction as of late. I believe this is best place on the web to learn about making your own baits. It is our hope that it continues to be a positive place and only continues to grow and increase in enjoyment and value for everyone. One thing that I want to make clear is that if you have an issue with our product or service, that you address us directly. That is the quickest way to get to a resolution. It seems that we are getting more comments directed to us by people behind screen names and when we try to reach out to them, they just disappear.
If you have any issues regarding our current offerings, new product development, customer service, possible patent infringements or anything else, please reach out to me. My phone number is 319-984-6055 and my personal email address mcbride at do-it molds.com. Along with Jerry, Jason H and Jason B, we have a whole host of people to work with you.
Best,
Ryan
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Something to consider is the way you clean your glassware or containers. Jet dry and similar products coat your glass and can cause reactions.
Just another thing to consider...
Jim
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PVC is what yellows. Stabilizer prevents the chloride from attaching to the vinyl and causing it to yellow.
I would review the below post and call Jerry with the details.
http://www.caneycreekmolds.net/index.php?topic=2518.msg16685#msg16685
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I know the post was not directed to me but take some offense to it. Like I said in my first post I took the devils approach, maybe a pm or a call would have been better but I did not make that choice. I do not hide behind a fake name and a lot of people have a phone number for me if not there is an email. I don't post false information and give my honest opinion. If I visit a forum that just boasts about how great things are I don't believe it. Every company has an issue once in awhile and I truly believe it is all in how you handle it. My plastic was bought when Jason was in control. So getting back to Do-it was not the right thing to do. Just like the bluegill molds. Did not mean to offend anyone. Frank
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I'll have to "echo" Frank here. Although me "spouting off" as I did (then wiped the post) wasn't called for, I wasn't hiding behind my ScreenName, I put the issue out there. I haven't replied in a manner that I probably should because there is no "fixing" the issue, on my end...but it is an issue that (I think) should be investigated/addressed, for the well-being of the company.
Maybe my issues really are my own, not the plastic's...if so, it should be "out in the open" that one's system for cooking has to be perfect. I mean, all we're doing is cooking this 3-component chemical...we're not putting a man on Mars. Maybe someone needs to invent a plastic that resists yellowing, and is easily cooked properly (so it doesn't turn cloudy months down the road). I've spoken to some good folks that...sometimes...use a thermometer, and have NO issues like I've had...:o...
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I didn't mean to offend or squash the thread either. This is a forum for discussion and can be helpful if folks are having issues. I just meant that there shouldn't be a "pilling on" effect when someone posts something up that may need addressing. If you have issues, address them to customer service and post up specific details of your findings. Pictures help....
This is a public forum and such should be able to be used for comments that are within the guidelines established by the forum. If they don't violate those guidelines, you should be able to express, vent, etc. without issue.
Even though many cook different and our set ups are different, BKJ said it right, this ain't rocket science. (Missed your previous post BKJ).... I am a clinical laboratory scientist by trade and respect the "lab" environment however I have used every available plastisol out there and conditions do not have to be perfect to get results.
Get details to Do-It and if it doesn't violate the forum agreement, post details here. Times, cook temps, glassware or cooking container, how you clean, (humidity should not be issue according to CCM as the containers do not allow for it), what you add (and did you cook without adding anything) and how you cook. Might be common denominator..
Jim
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In my opinion I think if a product has issues and problems it should be discussed on the forum. I also believe that it can be first addressed to the company. This forum is for us to DISCUSS problems and learn. POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE. I enjoy the forum and have learned a great deal on here.
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amen to all of that!!
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I use calhouns medium, buy it in drums, b/c of cost it meets a need. not the best, but does the job.
I have bought CC's med. a time or two in big boxes when Jason owned company. I can say, at least then it was so much better than what I use now it's not funny. The look, feel, smell, everything about CC's product is far superior. If Do-It hasn't changed formula (and they say they haven't), perhaps what happened to several people was a one batch mishap...and I'm sure it happened.
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How old is the plastic that the people are having issues with??
Did you buy it after the merger?
I have CCM plastic from both before and after the merger ...and I don't seem to be having the same issues, but I microwave mine in small/medium size batches and use a good digital thermometer ;D to make sure I control the temperature.
Are you mixing the plastic? There is no doubt that plastic that has settled could cause some of the issues that have been discussed.
The other obvious question is are you confident that you are getting the plastic to 350 degrees...or more? Otherwise ...it will get cloudy....and sticky.
Are you adding "non tested" additives...such as a home made scent brew? Adding a mystery chemical is bound to cause some issues!
It doesn't really surprise me that any plastic could start to burn if you have it on a stove/pot that doesn't have really good heat controls...or unless you are moving plastic through it fairly quickly. You are bound to start using up the heat stabilizer and those Presto pots are not exactly the bastion of Made in China quality!
I use a microwave and I always start adding heat stabilizer after the 2nd reheat. When I use my cast iron pots on a burner I always add a good shot of heat stabilizer as it sits.
And my 2 cents on this whole issue on if it should be even posted is....if you have a customer service issue...call customer service! I don't think this public forum on "how to" is the place to manage a customer service issue (if there is one).
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I think CCM's plastic is awesome. Like Andrew I just make small batches. I do not own a thermometer. I do heat it in a microwave and watch for it to turn liquid. I make only for myself and I never try to get to fancy. All that being said I have not had any issues with it. In fact I have soooooo many plastic baits from this past winter that I'm sure I can fish all summer now without making any more.
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Lamar, You don't use a thermometer...have any of Your baits or scraps turned cloudy?
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I won't say it never happens. Sometimes I run the microwave to long and that will burn it. I almost always use heat stabilizer and I think that helps. I've never had any turn cloudy after they have set up. I do have a twin injector that I will mix and match a few colors but as a general rule I stick to solid colors and not so much clear ones. I'm a true believer that fancy catches more fisherman then fish. But I do understand that some on here make lures to sell and are pushing out large amounts of plastic. What I'm saying is for me this is an awesome product and works very well.
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I had issues with CCM turning cloudy a couple months down the road as well as the baits would have a bad smell but have seemed to have gotten past that by ensuring my plastic is cooked to a minimum of 350. I do use stabilizer and cook a cup at a time using a microwave.
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How old is the plastic that the people are having issues with??
Did you buy it after the merger?
I have CCM plastic from both before and after the merger ...and I don't seem to be having the same issues, but I microwave mine in small/medium size batches and use a good digital thermometer ;D to make sure I control the temperature.
Are you mixing the plastic? There is no doubt that plastic that has settled could cause some of the issues that have been discussed.
The other obvious question is are you confident that you are getting the plastic to 350 degrees...or more? Otherwise ...it will get cloudy....and sticky.
Are you adding "non tested" additives...such as a home made scent brew? Adding a mystery chemical is bound to cause some issues!
It doesn't really surprise me that any plastic could start to burn if you have it on a stove/pot that doesn't have really good heat controls...or unless you are moving plastic through it fairly quickly. You are bound to start using up the heat stabilizer and those Presto pots are not exactly the bastion of Made in China quality!
I use a microwave and I always start adding heat stabilizer after the 2nd reheat. When I use my cast iron pots on a burner I always add a good shot of heat stabilizer as it sits.
And my 2 cents on this whole issue on if it should be even posted is....if you have a customer service issue...call customer service! I don't think this public forum on "how to" is the place to manage a customer service issue (if there is one).
Let me say it in an easy to read way.
I heat it up and it turns yellow as it cools. I don't own a digital thermometer because I don't believe it make a difference if it happens when it cools. My infrared one works just fine even if you don't think it does. To each his own. Like I said I bought it before the buy out. So calling customer service is not a good idea as they did not sell it to me. Should age matter? If you want to over look this issue then please do so. I am just glad I am not the only one this happened to. I bought it to dip baits after eyes were put on but can't now unless my swim baits are yellow.
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I am also seeing the same thing on the last batch I received 2 weeks ago. I have not changed anything. And I use a $250.00 Exergen precision infa-red thermometer. I was doing some white and after the first reheat it yellowed.
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Make no mistake, this is a plastic issue. It is not a heating or anything else issue. Something with the plastic.
I did a test when this happened to me last year. Heat 2 cups of plastic in the microwave, CCM and other brand until ready. Leave set for 2 minutes. CCM turns golden yellow, other brand white... Nothing added to cup, no stabilizer, no scent. I cleaned glassware, rinsed and dried.
Repeated test with other box I had, same result. CCM yellowed in 2-3 minutes of just setting, other brand stayed white....
I alerted customer service immediately. At that time, I guess I was the only one having the issue.
I respectfully disagree that this should not be posted as this is a public forum and posting issues is not against the rules. Many times others will have the same issue and just think it is normal or they are doing something wrong to cause the issue. Bringing the issue out can only help to resolve it. I do think contacting customer service is important too.
Jim
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Let me take one more opportunity to be clear.
I believe feedback is a gift. We appreciate hearing from you and take all information very seriously. Also, I agree that is a wonderful place to come and work through issues. This is such a great resource with so many people willing to lend a hand with their knowledge and experience. That is what this place is all about.
Now, specifically to our Crystal Clear Plastisol:
Do you know how many customers have called us or emailed us about their plastisol yellowing? ZERO
We have been proactive and reached out to some members on this forum, which have indicated they were experiencing this issue, to see if we could learn more and help rectify the situation. Do you know how many have replied? ZERO
Literally, 1000’s of gallons of our plastisol have been shipped to customers all over the world. We believe it is the best on the market and stand behind it 100%. If anyone ever experiences any issues with any of our products, we want to hear from you. I do not care when you bought it, we stand behind it.
In regards to this forum, you all do a great job in monitoring each other. I am not here to control the message, but I cannot sit back and watch a few people suggest that we have changed formulas or have some systemic issue. This is not the case. All that I ask, is that if you are experiencing something out of the norm, that you give us an opportunity to address and rectify the problem.
Ryan
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I HAVE ONLY HAD YELLOWING ISSUES WITH LIGHT COLORS AND I POSTED THAT PROBLEM AND IT WAS SUGGESTED THAT IT'S KINDA NORMAL WITH LIGHT COLORS BUT IM OK WITH THAT SO I JUST MAKE SMALLER BATCHES SO NOT TO WASTE AND I REALLY LIKE CCM PLATISOL I THINK IT'S THE BEST I'VE USED OUT OF FOUR BRANDS AND I WON'T BE BUYING ANY OTHER BRAND AND I REALLY DO LIKE THIS FORUM YOU GUY'S ARE GREAT AND THATS JUST MY TWO CENTS.
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Now, specifically to our Crystal Clear Plastisol:
Do you know how many customers have called us or emailed us about their plastisol yellowing? ZERO
I reported the issue immediately however this was prior to Do-It being involved but you have my report now. The plastic yellows after a few minutes of sitting. Something causes this and others can reproduce it in their shops. I may still have the box left that was causing this but more than likely it was discarded at the local oil depot. This issue is a pain if you are trying to use the plastic for dipping or even light colored/clear baits. Be great to know what is causing the yellowing for so many.
Jim
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I also have had an issue with the regular plastcal yellowing. I contacted Ryan recently and he has resolved my concerns. Ryan was very gracious with his time and with the resolution of my issue.
I find it troubling that this thread has been going on and on for weeks and NO ONE has contacted Do-It and talked directly with a person from the company. if you have a concern about the quality of a product sold by Do-It, contact them directly for resolution.
This is a great forum. I read it a lot... Haven't posted much.
Ken
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Was there an identified problem or just got new plastic?
I had a missed call from Ryan so will call when I get out of the hospital (work) but I no longer use the product so am only interested to see if the problem has been identified.
Jim
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Perhaps the original aggressive post from DO-IT turned people from wanting to speak to them.
I put my hand up and said i was having problems typed it in black and white. Even if people didn't call for one reason or another they have voiced there concerns here isn't that enough.
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And in spite of the flap, I just ordered another 2.5 gallons of CCM soft.
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And in spite of the flap, I just ordered another 2.5 gallons of CCM soft.
If you want I will send you some just pay for shipping.
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I thought the Forum was for giving each other tips on "how to"....not to resolve customer service issues.
Let's face it...there are a lot of issues here..possibly some with the plastic...possibly some with user's process...and possibly some other issues.
I just don't want to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs...I have learned a lot on this forum on how to do things....and the reason why I hang out on this forum vs. the "mean forum" is because it was always a helpful friendly place.
Let's get back to the CCM Forum being the happy, friendly, helpful place and if you have a customer service issue call customer service or PM if you don't like phone calls.
Let's not kill this goose.
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I have had the issue in the past, before do it, and on several occasions, for me smaller batches is not an option so I went in another direction for my plastic. As far as changing formula, I dont think they have BUT they get raw ingredients to make their plastic and that in it self could have changed. Saying no one has said anything doesnt cut it with me, people have gotten replacement plastic or heat stabilizer to help with the problem but that does not mean no one has complained. I find that hard to believe. When I had this issue Jason sent me another batch and that fixed my problem (that time ) but after having it again I chose not to use it at the premium price it is. It is a very durable plastic and cooked up great, I just couldnt get past the yellowing when I am dipping 1000 baits a day I cant have it happen after only a few minutes. I truly think the problem is with the raw ingredients and not in the control of do it. To say its our problem or we are doing something different is not the case with most. We are very methodical about how we cook our plastic as it is so fragile. Many have been doing this for years and have learned how to fix problems along the way but when we cant fix it there is something wrong.Not with our methods but with the product. We get enough denial from the government and would rather see the problem worked and repaired.
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Ha this place is starting to sound like TU :o
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Growing pains.
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Ha this place is starting to sound like TU :o
Curse words are not allowed on this forum!!!!! :D :D :D :D
Still disagree Andy. A transparent process for issues just like this leads to confidence in the process and product in my eyes.
Quashing the public discussion does the opposite for me.
Even though spring is here, I guess I need to go back into hibernation.... :D
Jim
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Jeez, Jim, I'd hate to see you go back into hibernation. You've always been an important part of this forum and have been around here a lot longer than most of us. Personally, I missed seeing your many posts during your absence. You are a good resource, a wealth of information, and, most of all, a good guy. I think most of the stuff going on now will shake itself out in the near future.
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""Ha this place is starting to sound like TU""
Not even close.
Sometimes to get something done you have to roll your sleeves up and get a little dirty.
These posts are being made by some of the "heavy hitters" to ignore these posts would be a bad business model.
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"These posts are being made by some of the "heavy hitters" to ignore these posts would be a bad business model."
I couldn't agree more, Rat.
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Do you think that instead of calling customer service that calling an issue on the public forum is the answer, I've read it all Del was great, Bear was great, Kevin was great, Shawn Collins was the man, Jason has it going on, every forum that these companies have has had it's share of growing pains, detractors, loyal followers it goes on and on just call customer service give them your take and give them the chance to get to the bottom of the issue I mean there is a transition going on here or the alternative would be to go back to using someone else's product it all comes around and goes around otherwise most small bait making operations would be out of vendors because there's only so many going round.
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Well I started this and had no intension of it going on this way. I have talked to Ryan and I am sending the rest of the plastic back so he can have it checked out. Now like I said before I did not buy it from him but he wants to make it right. I am not asking for anything. I am sure this will be taken care of in due time. I know he has just as much pride in this company as Jason and wants to continue like that. Keep looking back and we all will see what is going on. Frank
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see now that's what I mean and it's not you as a customer Frank it's the overall internet thing and it's misunderstanding of how things should be addressed, glad to here that they are looking at this closely and will get it worked out people don't like change we are a creature of habit and the worst thing that can happen is something not work after time and effort to get it right after all there are so many nuances to getting things just right. look forward to hearing your resolution.
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Hello, I am new to the forum, but have been pouring plastic for many years. I was thinking about purchasing some plastic from CCM. Before I do, and after hearing some issues, I would like to know if the heat stabilizer is crystal clear or tinted brown. What I have found over the years is sometimes when its tinted, it causing yellowing. I have been told that cheaper heat stabilizer is usually tinted. I am not trying to stir the pot, but the CCM plastic is not bottom line price range plastic, so before I purchase, just want to make sure what I'm buying.
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Hookset....
Welcome to Do-It Caney Creek.
My stabilizer is as clear as a bell as is the worm oil and the softener. The Caney stabilizer and all other components sold here at Do-It/Caney Creek are fully compatable with the CCM plastic.
When it comes to the core component in any plastic...the stabilizer, the softener/hardener and the raw plastic....one should stick with the same maker/provider to assure that compatability. I have wondered if maybe theres a chance that some of the yellowing issues haven't been due to mixing manufacturer's products. Its something to think about.
Again....welcome aboard. Enjoy!
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Welcome to the forum, Hookset. It's always good to have another voice of experience.
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ctom, You said that your stabilizer is clear right? I'm wondering if maybe that's my problem, mine is yellow and was that way when I got it. I thought it was normally yellow, so I never said anything.
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Mine sits right on the bench with the worm oil and softener and its as clear as the softener and oil. All of these are in the smallest size available from Do-It/CaneyCreek.
My batches of plastic are seldom larger that 6 ounces so the amount I use is only in drops, not tsp's or anything. My clear dip is done in batches of only two ounces in smaller pyrex cups getting like 10 drops of stabilizer on the initial cook and I'll add as I re-heat, maybe 6 drops on a re-melt as soon as the teemp gets high enough to liquify the plastic....270 or so I think is what I'll read on the digital.
There are so many variables in this stuff the best a person can do is to develope a system and techniques that work consistently, like the recipes, so that each heat up and shoot has as near to the same steps as possible. I use an 1100 watt microwave in all my cooking/heating/re-heat/remelt except for when I am doing laminated baits and need to keep the colors hot simultaneously and then the sand bedded hot plate gets some use too. My microwave rotates the cup as it heats and the only thing I may do different from others is I use and double layer of terry cloth bath towel in the plate in the microwave to absorb any spills or splashes and to cushion the pyrex cups from the glass plate. When removing the smaller pyrex cups I use a lot of, the towel also keeps keep those hot cups easy the handle. The towel will always be in the micro when its in use though.
According to my pocket book, "bulk" plastic for me is 2.5 gallons a pop. Only once have I had two full units this size un-opened at a time. Generally I have one full and one open and about a quart remaining when I re-order. Here at home the boxed plastic gets shuffled around enough to keep it agitated and blended. For every three 2.5 gallon boxes or so of plastic, I get a bottle of stabilizer. Thats my rate of usage. Softener usage is slightly less, really depending on how many smaller, softer baitsI am making. Not all plastic batches get stabilizer and not all get the softener. Perhaps by keeping what I have on hand in manageable quantities I don't see any issues in any of the products, I don't know. I buy only the CCM Crystal Clear soft formula platic and everything save for colors and UV enhancer that gets used with it comes from the same place. It may be that since I am using the soft formula of plastic that I don't see much of the yellowing issues because of the "soft" plastic formulation right out of the box....what firmness formula is being seen yellowing the most? The only time I see yellowing of any kind in using the soft formula and keeping all of the additives on a constant is when operator error causes the plastic to heat too long, too fast on re-melts, or to be re-heated/re-melted too many times.
I will note that since the merger I have not ordered new stabilizer.
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Tom...just wanted to say thanks for this post. You just have that ability to convey useful and practical information with almost every post and you have a willingness to share that information with the rest of us. Andy, Paul, Frank, Jim and so many others are the same way. It's what makes this forum special.
And, yes, I did pickup on the "digital" reference and I'm sure it was done for Andy's benefit.
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I just went and looked at my heat stabilizer and my bottle looks yellow or maybe more amber. So I put some in a clear glass and it's gin clear. So for me it's the bottle making it look yellow not the stabilizer.
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Thanks for the welcome. My experiences with other brands of plastics was, I would order a batch of 5, 5gal containers of plastic, worked great, could run 6 cups of plastic in a presto pot, or two pots with 6 cups, using Bears stir systems. Make clears with glitter or pearls, without any issues, would come out beautiful to the last lure. Then you order another batch, and it would yellow in a short time. Then I found this forum, did some reading, and most seemed to like the plastic. Then I see this thread, so not trying to be negative, because this seems to be an issue with many brands of plastic, just before I buy again, I would like to see problems solved.
Also, everything I use was cleaned maticulously. When I had issues, I did everything on my end to make sure it was not me causing the yellowing. I never heat plastic more than 330 degrees, then lower the temperature to around 290-300 to hand pour.
So in conclusion, anyone who ever used "Good" plastisol knows how well it works, and how clear you can pour large batchs of lures with no issues. And how enjoyable it is to make good lures without pulling your hair out LOL
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I got a pint of CCM stabilizer in January. When I got it, it appeared amber. I have used about 80% of it with no incident. I was quite concerned about the color when I got it as it had been crystal clear in the bottle in prior orders. Baits came out clear/clean and that is all I need.
Tim
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The stabilizer does have a slight amber hint to it, but the small amount that is required to be added does not have much of an impact on the overall color or clarity.
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Thanks Denny. Just trying to offer possible solutions to a real puzzler.
Duckman....Quantity can change the perceived color in a clear bottle. So can the light source. What looks clear to me in a 5 ounce doker bottle could look entirely different in a 16 ounce bottle. Still, when you consider the dilution rate in even a small batch of plastic even a light amber product would have zero affects on the plastic. The UV enhancer I use is a fairly strong amber color and there isn't a hint of it being in my 2 ounces cover dip even with 6 or 7 drops.
My own personal belief is that I need to work in quanities that I can control very easily. By control I mean the heat, the coloring, the softness, the number of times I can handle the plastic starting with a cold chunk. I know that large quantities get away from me all too easy even when using recipes and paying close attention to staggered cook times and heat settings. I also keep my work area un-cluttered, and that means mentally as well as physically. I do not try to have a conversation and work at the same time. Its all too easy to omit something necessary or to let something cook longer than it needs to. My posting constantly uses the phrase "baby steps" and I stand by that 100% for the hobbyist plastics player. Doing so can eliminate the largest problem in working with plastic....operator error.
I cannot speak for those working in large volumns. They have their own control measures that have worked for them time and time again. But I will also suggest that the hobbyist has to work in a harsher, more critical, environment because small quantities of plastic go from friendly temps to outlandinsh in three seconds in a microwave. Colors can go from oakie doakie to damn in a heartbeat. Too little initial heat can provide nothing more than a sticky pile of something. Since the hobbyist is closest to what I do, my observations I'll share openly to try and resolve an issue and the first place I look in my mind is what inconsistency is found in the person's methodology. Its usually something outside of the parameters of product quality. Bottom line to this; controlling the process of making plastic out of a bottle of something the consistency and color of milk is paramount for the professional and the hobbyist. The problems that can befall a large scale outfit are not the same as what hobbyists see. The may be similar but production methods set the two apart. For both, the most common problems don't arrive in bottles, they come as operator error. I know I mess up enough plastic to prove it. If user error doesn't doesn't apply, then the problem exists with the manufacturer. Nobody at Caney formulated or made the raw plastic and I know for a fact that nobody at Do-It does either. A simple heads up to Do-It is all that's needed to make them aware of the problem and for them to resolve the issue with whomever while at the same time addressing the issue with the product manufacturer. No amount of fluffing on a web site is going to solve the problem any quicker. Serious issues, like large scale yellowing, should be taken directly to Do-It by a phone call or a direct customer contact e-mail. Have your order ifo handy so tracking product dates back thru the company is made easier.
Andy has his bent on thermometer use and I leaning heavy on taking things slow and easy. Denny has his gloves with a roll of quarters inside for tough cases. I always found this site as a helping place for small guys and large guys alike. While the sheer size has taken a quantum leap, the aire of helpfulness is still here. I think the issue that brought this thread to a head is beyond what we can discuss or solve in here. We need to see what the maker says. We can still learn from all of this. and we can all walk away with a few new things to think about that in the end will make for a whole bunch of happy campers.
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Fyi the thermometer Andy recommends is now $12 and change, it used to be about $20 I think.
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What Mr. Duckman said was true about stabilizer being amber. I was the first one to post that it was amber, got shouted down by a couple guys (couple guys pm'd me confirming the amber color)...but I knew it was amber, nothing "perceived" about it, different than it had been in past.
It doesn't affect how I view the product as I don't remelt light colors w/stabilizer, I usually use remelts in a darker formula. I've used other brand...it ran me out of the building, that stuff has to be very bad for you.
Do-It's does the job, it is odorless, doesn't smoke, wish they sold it in larger quantities (five gallons) and it tastes great and is less filling!!!
don't know about the UV product...it does what they say it does (under a blacklight), don't know how fish react to it...sure someone, some company will have a video out on fish biting UV and rejecting a non-UV bait!!!
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Reason I asked about colour of the heat stabilizer was, everything I have been told over the years is, all plastisol has heat stabilier in it to keep from oxidation I believe is what they call it. So if a companies heat stabilizer in a bottle is tinted, I would assume its the same stabilizer that they put in from the get go into the plastisol. Thats what I would think causes issues.
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I have spoken to Ryan at Do-It a couple of times now and can say that i am very pleased with the outcome over this whole plastic yellowing debacle.
He was most apologetic and showed genuine concern that i wasn't happy with the product and is willing to work with me to rectify the problem, not bad considering i am on the other side of the world.
That being said i would recomend anyone that has concerns or problems about anything from Do-It to simply give them a call it was a good experience for me.
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Ordered a bottle of stabilizer last week, it is crystal clear, not a bit different than it ever was when I ordered from Jason. Also, I have tried it all, from MF, Calhoun, Chemonics, LC, and CCM plastisols and CCM stands above the rest for me. However, I have had some experieneces with the plastic yellowing with small AND large batches. It only seems to yellow on lighter colors, and to agree with Frank, it always yellows after the plastic comes out of the microwave, as it is cooling. I have since then watched my temps very carefully, and I now take my cups out of the microwave 10% earlier than normal, relative to the cup size and plastisol amount. This has totally solved my yellowing problem, I have even reheated the same cup of clear for dipping over 10 times with no yellow. I also use stabilizer in every batch, and clean my cups AND stirring utensils (maybe an overlooked variable?) with hot water before I pour every time. I will agree fully that this plastic is touchy, you can be on the perfect temp and then 10 seconds later it will be yellowed and the batch ruined. It takes a bit more time to really get the timing down, which will in turn slow down production for guys making hundreds of baits in a session, but for small to medium volume manufacturers I think it's a good trade off.
Just my thoughts :D
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Below is a link to a post I made a about 1.5 yrs ago where we were discussing microwaves and how long they continue to cook (and raise temperature) AFTER you pull the cup of plastic out of the microwave.
Also discussed is how your high wattage microwave could make a big difference in heating (and burning ...which is what the yellowing is) of your plastic.
I have very little issues with yellowing/burning plastic...but maybe it's because I use a low wattage microwave now.
I also heat in smaller increments...4 oz for 2 minutes, then in 20-30 second intervals to get it to temperature. I never "reheat" more than 1 minute at a time. I've had plastic go from too thick to inject (with clumps from the sprue, runner and left over injector plastic) to burning in less than a 2 minute heat cycle.
Thinking back, I did have a high wattage microwave and I did have issues with plastic yellowing (scorching) back them ...and not just CCM plastic which was "new" back then. I remember setting my microwave to 50% power to keep from burning the plastic (and obviously learning to go to shorter heat cycle times).
The other "Must" is a turntable in your microwave to avoid spot heating which is a big issue with cooking food in a microwave. There is no doubt that scorching starts and the bottom center of the Pyrex cup.
I wonder how much the cups we are using to heat our plastic is contributing to the over heating issue??? I used silicon cups (Jason recommends them) for a long time and the do heat much more evenly than Pyrex. I just got nervous about how floppy they were.
http://www.caneycreekmolds.net/index.php?topic=667.msg3362#msg3362
From that post:
Also, remember that anything that is microwaved may continue to "cook" for a period of time (the molecules stay excited and vibrating)!!! Don't think so? Heat you plastic to 350 and stir with the digital food thermometer (the long stainless steel probe is perfect for that) and watch how high you temperature goes!!! I'd bet if you are heating to 375...the plastic is going over 400 degrees within the first 30 seconds out of the microwave.
From: http://www.fsis.usda.gov/factsheets/microwave_ovens_and_food_safety/index.asp#14
Microwaves cause water, fat, and sugar molecules to vibrate 2.5 million times per second, producing heat. After the oven is off or food is removed from the oven, the molecules continue to generate heat as they come to a standstill. This additional cooking after microwaving stops is called "carryover cooking time," "resting time," or "standing time." It occurs for a longer time in dense foods such as a whole turkey or beef roast than in less-dense foods like breads, small vegetables and fruits. During this time, the temperature of a food can increase several degrees. For that reason, directions may advise to let a food "rest" for a few minutes after turning off the oven or removing food from the oven.
I set my microwave down to medium at the end of the heating cycle...or I often get scorching. This is probably more important if you have a high wattage microwave ...which will cook faster than a lower wattage unit.
(read the "Time-to-Boil Test" in the above mentioned article).
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Jerry was kind enough to IM me about Plastic after I joined. He mentioned he did'nt have any pots that he uses, and on here every post I have read, or at least that I remember reading was using microwaves. So my question is, does any one use presto pots with any stir systems to heat their plastics and how did the plastics do as far as this topic is related too, yellowing?
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I use home made presto pots for bigger batches. I really don't do many light colors in the larger batches, so I don't know about the whites and such. I do a light watermelon for some baits and never noticed the color changing or yellowing in the pot. Joey
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There are loads of great info coming out of this thread, I hope it continues on the path it is. I haven't started pouring yet buy am gathering things as finances allow and I want to thank you all for sharing your trials.
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What a thread!!!
I just recently noticed my plastic turning yellow but am almost certain I over heated it when I was warming it back up. Now I use a little bit of that hard yellow plastic as filler when I create darker colors so I save a little virgin plastic. I don't dip eyes much but plan to start so I hope this is resolved.
I think putting issues up on the forum is no big deal, but the piggy backing gets a little redundant and hard to get to the bottom of an issue when you have to read through 6 pages of identical issues. Im still a new guy though so Ill just stand by to see how this plays out.
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I have never had my plastic turn yellow unless I nuke it for an extreme amount of time. I don't know, maybe there was a bad batch of plastic one time and it happened to get out. I have order 50 plus gallons and have never had a problem with it. Even when I do add the Heat Stabe. I have noticed however that gold glitter does not like to be reheated more than once. It looses its luster fast.
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My heat stabilizer is clear, order 2 different times, a few months apart. 1st one 5.5 oz. bottle=clear, 2nd one pint=[clear, this was last year. The worm oil I also ordered last year, 1 pint=clear!