Custom Baits - Forum
Soft Plastic Bait Making => Soft Plastic and Plastic Baits - How To??? => Topic started by: BareKnuckleJigs on 12/14/11 12:17 UTC
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Fella's, what's the Secret/Method to pouring Laminates? I understood it, in my own mind, as Hand-Pouring one side of the mold (in general terms) then closing the mold and shooting the 2nd color. What's the Best Method/Best Kept Secrets of this Fine (>:() Process?
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I am hardly the expert in this arena but there a few ways to achieve multi color baits:
1: Pour 1/2 of mold let it set up a little, close the mold, and inject a second color. It helps to dip in a clear afterward to mend the two halves and keep the eyes in place
2: Inject/pour one color baits and then accent with bait dyes (i.e. from Lurecraft)
3: Use a blending block and dual injector (available from Basstackle)
There may be other methods but these are three that I have tried. It really depends on how much time you want to spend on the baits and how much you want to trick them out.
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steady hand and having the temps of both plastics as close to each other as possible... like within 5*
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Thank Yawl, Fella's! I think I'm going to have to Give In and get the Dual Injector. I got a little of Jason's .035" Fire Opal flake and wanted to give it a shot. This stuff would be WAAAY better if it kept all of it's color...it does have an application, though. I was shooting for a Clear Water Laminate that I could use for Bass AND Salt...here's what I did...
***Top Color
8 oz.s CCM Plastic
24 Dashes CCM .035" Fire Opal flake
2 Pinches CCM .015" Gunmetal flake
2 Pinches CCM .015" Moss Green flake
***Bottom Color
8 oz.s CCM Plastic
24 Dashes CCM .035" Fire Opal flake
I ended up using an injector (the 2nd time) to Open-Pour the Top Color, closed, then shot the Bottom...after Pouring the Top by hand, was going in a Cold Mold and was setting up faster than the Plastic would settle in...
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If I had to describe the Fire Opal flake, once it hits plastic...it loses most of it's color/sheen/Opal flash, yes...BUT, it retains a mild Opal-Spectrum of colors, and looks a bit like "Flash Foil" flake, with killer little "Micro Crinkles". It's actually pretty nice.
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What's the temp in the room where you are pouring? If the molds are too cold and the first layer cools down too quick, you can also get cold cracks in your baits. If the temp is too hot, the lams will blend. One common way to warm up the mold is to shoot it full, de-mold, and even shoot it full again and de-mold to bring it up to temp. Just like most of life works- once you get your kinks out, you'll have it down as there are so many variables...
The Twinjector paired with the blending block works great when you want a 50/50 bait. The crossmembers attached to it allow for an even pressure with the two injectors versus trying to push down equally on two separate injectors with a blending tip. (just my opinion) When you want more layers than 2, or doing bellies (o.e. Croaker, etc.) the hand poured belly and injected top (and middle like Jim with his sweet 3 colored Croakers) are tough to beat.
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I want to see some pics of the 3 color Croakers!!!! Those three color Wutz-Its he posted were unbelievable!!!
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I just put a Sexy Swim Shad in the gallery / color cookbook. They're not quite Ghost or Micro quality, but they are super easy triple lams. I just poured the top and bottom by hand, then injected the middle.
http://www.caneycreekmolds.net/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=385 (http://www.caneycreekmolds.net/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=385)
(http://www.caneycreekmolds.net/gallery/1_14_12_11_3_36_07.jpeg)
Jason
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Ok....now....how about a 4 color????? :P
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Hey; Andrew; You were reading my mind. You posted here while I posted the same challenge in the gallery.
Is this -- Hey, lets post our really cool bait pictures day?
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Ok....now....how about a 4 color????? :P
It would be just as easy, only difference would be using a blending block vs. just an injector. You could even add a 5th color by adding a drop of red or orange on the throat.
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Jason;
Does that mean we can expect to see a five color bait soon ?
Eye color doesn't count.
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On the way home I came up with a plan for a 10 color...all poured/injected Wutz-it! Now all I need is the 3 hours it would take to do it! :o
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that is an awesome color Jason!
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I just put a Sexy Swim Shad in the gallery / color cookbook. They're not quite Ghost or Micro quality, but they are super easy triple lams. I just poured the top and bottom by hand, then injected the middle.
http://www.caneycreekmolds.net/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=385 (http://www.caneycreekmolds.net/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=385)
(http://www.caneycreekmolds.net/gallery/1_14_12_11_3_36_07.jpeg)
Jason
You got that accomplished before I could get that mold. What ever you do, please don't think I took your design when I get my mold and pour the same sexy shad. LOL ;D
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I just put a Sexy Swim Shad in the gallery / color cookbook. They're not quite Ghost or Micro quality, but they are super easy triple lams. I just poured the top and bottom by hand, then injected the middle.
http://www.caneycreekmolds.net/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=385 (http://www.caneycreekmolds.net/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=385)
(http://www.caneycreekmolds.net/gallery/1_14_12_11_3_36_07.jpeg)
Jason
I'm gussing by the color of the tail it was part of the middle injection?
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I just put a Sexy Swim Shad in the gallery / color cookbook. They're not quite Ghost or Micro quality, but they are super easy triple lams. I just poured the top and bottom by hand, then injected the middle.
http://www.caneycreekmolds.net/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=385 (http://www.caneycreekmolds.net/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=385)
(http://www.caneycreekmolds.net/gallery/1_14_12_11_3_36_07.jpeg)
Jason
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Every month for three months besides December I've ordered a mold from CCM. Now I've got a 10 inch, 7 inch and a 4.75 inch ribbon tail, so you can imagine what kinda injections a person can come up with with only three molds. I will post some in the gallery section so everyone can see them. This is something that I had never seen until I got the idea from watching Jason making the toads in one of his videos. To do it you must: Preheat your mold until WARM, not hot. Second, pour a color on one side of the mold then the other, third, allow time to set but not cool, finally, inject the mold with the last color. If you've let your plastic set to long to cool before injecting it, you will notice that the laminates will separate. If you inject it to soon, the plastic in the mold will gum up making your injection fail to reach the end.
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I can't wait to see some sweet worms. I bet they are awesome!
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I was going to ask just what Dave talked about with his worms.
Pouring the top and bottom of the mold and then injecting the center will probably require you to heat your molds.
My question was, how many baits still have the "cold cracks" between the layers? Cold cracks are the lines you can see between the different colors. No big deal to the fish or if you are fishing the baits yourself but a big deal if you try to sell those baits.
If you are dipping over the portion of the bait you are pouring, then you will not see these cracks at all with the finished product. Worms, lizards, etc will be a different story.
Just curious as I normally just pour the belly or one-side of the bait before injecting and still can see some cold cracks sometimes. Those baits will not go out if they are for someone else but fish fine out of my boat!!! Add the other pouring in and the one side has plenty of time to cool.
How hot are you heating your mold and do you think you could make a decent amount of these reliably (like 50 baits)?
Thanks EXPERTS!!!!!!!!! :D
Jim
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Ah-HA! Thank You, Dave and Jim! Preheat the mold. At's a roger. Time for the heat gun.
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I'm gussing by the color of the tail it was part of the middle injection?
Yes. You could do a separate tail, but I just injected the middle of the bait.
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OK, here is an example of one of my personal laminates from a 4.75 ribbon tail.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-jecZreaQlzw/Tun6FDu8SII/AAAAAAAAACY/rulDIGdbPaM/s640/408.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Ll_hZ_-KKxw/Tun5Jd7VquI/AAAAAAAAABw/Iel3ux4Uj10/s640/403.JPG)
Now Ghost to answer your question, if your molds are not at the right temp, the cold lines will be visible. If your molds are to hot they get ugly real quick when injecting them because your colors start to swirl together. I wish I had a infrared thermometer the be precise, but I don't. I throw mine on a hot plate by GE for a few minutes. About 1.5 minutes on one side then the other for another minute and a half. If you can touch it with a bare hand without getting burnt, your doing good. Trust me, my red neck thermometer works great after a few times of being burnt. That aluminum heats up real quick. To do 50 of them would take some time, but it is doable. At first the cold lines appeared on every worm until I started heating my molds. After that they went away. If your molds get to cool the lines will begin to show again. Just something to remember when the line reappear.
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Every month for three months besides December I've ordered a mold from CCM. Now I've got a 10 inch, 7 inch and a 4.75 inch ribbon tail, so you can imagine what kinda injections a person can come up with with only three molds. I will post some in the gallery section so everyone can see them. This is something that I had never seen until I got the idea from watching Jason making the toads in one of his videos. To do it you must: Preheat your mold until WARM, not hot. Second, pour a color on one side of the mold then the other, third, allow time to set but not cool, finally, inject the mold with the last color. If you've let your plastic set to long to cool before injecting it, you will notice that the laminates will separate. If you inject it to soon, the plastic in the mold will gum up making your injection fail to reach the end.
Your baits look awesome. You inspired me to give it a go and I made some 7" ones. I posted it in the Cook Book section.
Nice work!!!
Jason
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Thanks Jason! After doing this time after time just to get it figured out, I came up with an idea and took it to the machine shop. This little secret will be let out of the bag after I get it back and play with it enough to master it. I fell in love with laminates after my first one, so now my focus is perfecting it. :D
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I can see all sorts of ideas with this. If you do a separate green tail, and pour a green back and white belly then inject black you could make a great bass minnow! Plus other ideas would be a steelhead trout, bluegill, etc.
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It won't help with making triple laminates, but I've made some "laminate" plates for guys that are really cool. It's basically a blank half of the mold (only has alignment pin / hole, venting, spru and runner), that you can clamp to the mold, shoot half, then close the mold and shoot the other half. It's not as fast as a blending block, but it makes a stone cold perfect bait and is very simple.
It's a little chewed up, but here's a Watermelon Red / Pearl Wutz-It made that way.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-UKTaQYmj_Zg/TupGYj9j0yI/AAAAAAAABwo/tm3kxNh0hXU/s640/2011-12-15%25252013.10.50.jpg)
Jason
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Jason, that is brilliant! :o :o :o . Is it just a milled plate? If it is what is the cost? ;D ;D ;D
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Love the ingenuity!!!
Jim
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Dave...your laminated worm's are phenomenal.
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Thanks Denny, maybe we can take injections to a new level. I am really liking this plate Jason's working on though. I can see a worm split perfectly down one side-one color and the other side perfectly another color. ;)
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Lol!!!! There are molds available with this plate already and the results are superb. After getting into injection a couple years ago, the divider seemed like a no brainer to a newbie like me. nobody seemed to like it at that time.
I like to see newer guys come in as they see things these "old" eyes haven't seen or thought of!!! I like fresh ideas!!
Jim
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PS... With some molds, you can just turn one half of the mold around and the flat side or outside of the mold will be towards the cavity. I would have the sprue milled out properly if you haven't been shooting for a long time as you may have safety issues.
Shoot the mold and then turn that piece back around and shoot again..... Perfect laminate every time...
Jim
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The first version was basically that, just flat. It didn't take long to see it needed venting. You could force it, but there was pretty good back pressure. Once you added venting, having it lined up correctly became relevant, so an alignment pin was needed... and so on. Doing something like this could range from a piece of heavy foil -> to what we will ultimately release (basically half the mold minus the cavity). If you're making baits for yourself it seems like a no brainier. I'll be curious if any "production" guys use it.
There are some other tricky things we have in the hopper. Just need to keep flushing out the bugs until there ready.
Jason
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I personally don't see using something like that in a production setting UNLESS the mold is multi-cavity (4-6 cavities) and has a single runner plate to accomadate the multi-cavities.
Honestly, the twinjector is so fast and simple to use that there will have to be radical differences for me to change in my production process as it is. Outside of production though, I would probably experiment a lot.
It is fun to think outside the box and come up with new ways to do things!!!
Jim
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I agree with Jim; It is slower than the twinjector. I like it because it is more relaxing to me than having to have two cups of plastic "ready" at the same instant and the added complexity of the blending block. The secondary plate provides a "parting line Lamination" vs a volume lamination. The laminate is almost always very crisp; which some like and some don't. I also feel sure that anyone who does a lot of injecting Laminates and has "worked" with the twinjector is a lot better and more comfortable "twinjecting" than I am, especially at this time. I am still working on getting the simple stuff down pat.
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Honestly, the "oddball" mistakes always seem to produce over the perfect looking bait.
Guess it comes down to the bat either looking odd or weak. Either way, that is what I like about the twinjector system myself.
Jim
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I heat my molds on my gas grill..mmmm smells like steak! Anyway heat to 300-350. I hand poured some bellies and shot the body on some small fries. The two halves melded together fine and did not separate when I pulled at them. I'm going to post pics and recipe in the cookbook section.
http://www.caneycreekmolds.net/index.php?topic=900.0
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Like I said earlier, all I am waiting on is the machine shop to get done with my project, then I'll produce some laminates! By the way Rick your baits look great! ;)
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That bottom picture was by far the best, Rick. It made me hungry.
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I heat my molds on my gas grill..mmmm smells like steak! Anyway heat to 300-350. I hand poured some bellies and shot the body on some small fries. The two halves melded together fine and did not separate when I pulled at them. I'm going to post pics and recipe in the cookbook section.
http://www.caneycreekmolds.net/index.php?topic=900.0
Gas grill... :o
You should be okay just shooting it a couple times to knock the chill off and warm the mold some. Maybe a heat gun or griddle if you don't want to make any solid baits first.
The gas grill would scare me. Besides being the most expensive, I would think it most likely to either tweak your mold, or cause a safety concern with the combo of open flame and plastic products. I would also be concerned about any smoking of residual plastic ultimately ending up where I cook food.
Forgive me if I sound like a mother hen...
Jason
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Jason, these plates your working on, I strongly believe they will be a very helpful tool to the people that make their own baits for their own purpose. I believe it will be economically suitable for people who can't afford 160.00 bucks for a twin injector system, but I would ultimately have to agree with Jim. For people who do this as a productive business, it's not suitable for productivity. But if I'm understanding your vision, this is about everyone not just the entrepreneurs or tournament fisherman or even the weekend adventures, it's about everyone. ;)
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Sorry if I came across from the productivity side Dave, just is always in my head when I make decisions!!!! I guarantee I will still be jumping in on something like these plates just so I can play with them.
Great thing I have seen so far in Jason and CCM are committed to customer care regardless of who you are or what you fish for.
Jim
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I just bought a Twin Injector ....and am trying to learn how to use it! But... I'm in this game for the fun of making my own baits...and making them as good as I can...tough for those of us that are artistically challenged!
I am really spending a LOT of time "practicing" how to hand pour so I can attempt to imitate some of the baits I see on this site. But again...my hand eye coordination is not that of an artist!!
So...any "process" that can help me make a better bait (even one at a time) is very interesting to me.
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:D :D :D Well y'all have to admit, this is what will keep CCM at the top if our focuses are at a diverse group of people. Jim it's nothing to worry about brotha! We tend to look at the world we are currently in and forget to realize other worlds that exist. I'm for one that has this issue at times. Just like this topic of laminates. I've gotten lost in the mix of it. Feeding off of the enthusiasm and motivation of everyone and watching idea's generate from it bringing a different approach to laminating plastic baits. Now with that said, some of you guys can create a work of art that grasp the breath of a person. I for one am really attracted to some of the laminates that have been displayed on this site, so keep up the awesome job guys. ;) ;) ;)
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I do mine both ways, or should I say 2 different ways. For production I use the twin injector but for special order or some of the stuff that goes in my box I hand pour then inject. because all my grubs get dipped after I dont heat my molds as cold cracks is not an issue but I have found by holding pressure on the injector it helps with the bond. For my hand pour/inject like on the small fry I tilt the mold up if I want to get a throat color other wise it end up as a belly color on the bait. I tilt it one way and pour the throat then turn the mol and do the other half of the grubs. While I am doing that I have my back color heating up. Then I lay the mold flat and pout the back. When doing both half's of the mold make sure you dont over fill or you wont have room for the plastic to go when you inject it. once the back is done I close them up and inject the body color. Not as fast as the twin injector but once you get going you can reheat once while working with another and it can go fairly quick.
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg289/microspoons/DSCF7830.jpg)
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg289/microspoons/DSCF7831.jpg)
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg289/microspoons/DSCF7832.jpg)
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg289/microspoons/DSCF7833.jpg)
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg289/microspoons/DSCF7834.jpg)
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You amaze even more with every picture you post. Beautiful baits!!!
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Thanks Jason!!
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Cool baits. I like the color combo!
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Jason's right, every time you post a bait it is phenomenal! Nice work MS....
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Gas grill... :o
You should be okay just shooting it a couple times to knock the chill off and warm the mold some. Maybe a heat gun or griddle if you don't want to make any solid baits first.
The gas grill would scare me. Besides being the most expensive, I would think it most likely to either tweak your mold, or cause a safety concern with the combo of open flame and plastic products. I would also be concerned about any smoking of residual plastic ultimately ending up where I cook food.
Forgive me if I sound like a mother hen...
Jason
I should be getting a griddle soon..I work in my garage with a 16'x7' opening when the door is up. I have found 50 degree weather, molds cool off faster than I can shoot and demold. The grill only takes about 2 or 3 minutes to heat and I brush off any plastic before I use my molds. A cheap soft bristle tooth brush works great for cavities, and molds too! LOL ;D
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Be careful Dave. Rapid heating of aluminum molds can potentially warp them. When I get back I will dig up the info posted previously on another tackle site.
Hate for your molds to get affected.
Jim
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Jim, right on for looking out! :o That would be big time disappointing to have them warp :o
Do you think it's better just to run some plastic in them a few times before beginning the process?
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Referencing Microspoon's post. I tried to hand pour a set of tops in a small fry mold. There was more plastic outside the cavities than inside. I just don't have the muscle control ( also arthritis, tendonitis ) to pour a "clean mold" anymore. That is a talented "dance" to work a three color small fry.
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Be careful Dave. Rapid heating of aluminum molds can potentially warp them. When I get back I will dig up the info posted previously on another tackle site.
Hate for your molds to get affected.
Jim
Ive heard the phrase but what exactly is "warping?"
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When the aluminum deforms and is no longer flat. I have personally never experienced it doing this, but will see if I can find some technical information about this and try and post some guidelines.
Good topic.
Thanks,
Jason
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I tried to hand pour a set of tops in a small fry mold. There was more plastic outside the cavities than inside. I just don't have the muscle control ( also arthritis, tendonitis ) to pour a "clean mold" anymore.
I made a ....you'll love this..."dip stick" to put small amounts of plastic in portions of the mold to get the orange throat. I took a 1/4" dowel and sharpened an "almost" point on it in the pencil sharpener. Its tapered to about 1/2 of the thickness of the dowel. I simply dip this stick in the hot plastic and touch it to the area I want the plastic to stay. Its not 100% but after dinking with this get-up I have gotten pretty accurate in the delivery and can move right along. If I have a miss, I just peel it out and hit that cavity again.
To fill the top or bottom halves, try using a regular old spoon you'd use to eat cereal. I heat my plastic up to about the 360 deghree point, then place the cup in a heavy towel with a pocket formed to nestle the cup in....stays hot for a looooong time. As I fill each cavity, I rub the drip off the bottom of the spoon on the cup's rim and this really cuts down on the over-runs. When I need to re-heat the plastic, I just peel that from the rim down into the still-liquid plastic in the cup and fire it up again.
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When the aluminum deforms and is no longer flat. I have personally never experienced it doing this, but will see if I can find some technical information about this and try and post some guidelines.
Good topic.
Thanks,
Jason
Thanks Jason, I would hate to give someone a tip about something that I do and cost them a loss in equipment. Plus I would personally hate to lose my molds as well. ???
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Jason check on the aluminum "pitting" as well. Fast, high heat supposedly will do this also.
I was sent this info from another mold maker that had guys heating the molds to 350-400. After several months of use, they had the issues of mold warp and the cavities started pitting.
I have had my injectors for some time and never heat them but they take the brunt of the heat initially. Notice how they expand and get much easier to use after a few runs and the heat gets to them. Makes sense molds might get expanded easy from the high intense heat.
Wish I had better details from Del but that is all I got.
I never heat my molds with anything as the plastic seems to do it fine and soon I am waiting to long for the molds to cool and de-mold. :D
Jim
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Great Info, Mr. Jim! Thank You, Sir! I've been pondering warming with a Heat Gun, haven't done it yet, but with the Info that's Coming To Light and Condensing on this Thread, if the Heat Gun IS used, maybe it should be used in moderation and maybe only to knock the chill off the mold...shooting and slowly bringing upto temp sounds most safe.
Does Del say if they use the same T6 6061 Aluminum as Jason does? Or is it "lesser/inferior" 5056? Not that it REALLY should matter, as there are obviously things we shouldn't do to our molds, but...
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Good point on the aluminum quality. Del might be using lesser quality but I doubt it.
Just hate to see a guy loose use of a killer good CCM mold.
Jim
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At's a BIG Roger!!!
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Both molds and the injectors can sweat if you heat them in an oven, especially if they go in when they are quite cold. I don't know if I want water inside an injector or go un-noticed in a mold cavity when the plastic goes in. Just a thought here.
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I don't think it would be very good to heat the mold.....but depending on who's injector you have you might need to heat the injector.
I shoot mine cold and don't have a bit of issues.....until I shoot so much they get really warm! ;D Just takes longer to demold is all.
Good topic!
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I have had my injectors for some time and never heat them but they take the brunt of the heat initially. Notice how they expand and get much easier to use after a few runs and the heat gets to them. Makes sense molds might get expanded easy from the high intense heat.
Jim
When I inject, I get bits of plastic lining the barrell wall of my injector and it gets difficult to push the plunger. Any suggestions????? Other than taking it apart and cleaning after a few rounds?
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Rick, mine does the same. Eventually I have to break mine down and clean it so I can continue or it just gums up my plastics. Jason you have any suggestions? ???
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Strip mine down completely after about 3-4 sessions. Every session and in between color runs, I will take off the nozel and put a couple drops of worm oil on the plunger and work it back and forth, similar to cleaning a gun barrel. It does 2 things, it breaks down and gets rid of the boogers on the sides, plus it lubricates the tube.
Tim
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Weird, I never have cleaned mine once. I get some tiny flash around the o-ring and that is it. Wonder why plastic is getting behind the plunger? It shouldn't.
I had an injector from Del that was so tight I had to add worm oil to use of. Few drops go a long way.
Even the twinjector never gets plastic behind the plunger. Sounds like the o-ring to me.
Jim
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Not sure how you have never had a tiny amount of plastic (very slight amount) get behind the o ring? On two different brands of injectors I have used, they are essentially the same. I used the term boogers, but it is more like a film.
Tim
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Just unscrewed the back of my 6oz. 2 little pieces of black, that is it. Nothing in the teinjectors at all. Been using for 4 hours now non-stop.
Jim
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Wonder if plastic temps are the difference? I shoot as cool as possible. 300 to 315... Rarely much warmer if possible.
Plastic has to be getting past o-ring for this to happen. I have Dels injectors and BT injectors plus twinjector.
Jim
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Just finished shooting for a while... Here is my injector..
(http://www.ghostbaits.com/2011-12-19_21-20-09_833injector.jpg)
No plastic gets past my o-ring......
Jim
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Maybe I'm shooting too hot, guess I'll hit up BT for rubber o'rings too.
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Jim that may be my problem then. I'll go down to the automotive store and try out a few new O'rings. Mine looks no where close to being as clean as yours. Thanks.
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Back on the laminates, as I was hand pouring my Wutz-It bellies last night, I thought about making a multi-cavity belly mold from plaster of paris so I could just fill those, let cool and transfer to my Wutz-It molds....
While I like the results the inconsitency of hand pouring the bellies gives, speeding the process up (just like the croaker belly molds do) is attractive to me....
Maybe I can squeeze it in over the holidays!
Jim
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Back on the laminates, as I was hand pouring my Wutz-It bellies last night, I thought about making a multi-cavity belly mold from plaster of paris so I could just fill those, let cool and transfer to my Wutz-It molds....
While I like the results the inconsitency of hand pouring the bellies gives, speeding the process up (just like the croaker belly molds do) is attractive to me....
Maybe I can squeeze it in over the holidays!
Jim
My wife tried to make belly molds for croakers from polymer clay. It didn't work, the clay shrunk after baking and the plastic came out flat and dull..I just bought a couple more molds and saved the trouble. LOL
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Just won a 6 oz Twinjector on Ebay for a decent price. Cant wait to try it.
...Bill