Author Topic: Heat Issues?  (Read 5631 times)

Offline fisherguy84

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Heat Issues?
« on: 01/11/16 08:29 UTC »
Hey guys.  I have been reading the forum for over a year and have picked up on a lot of good discussions.  I'm hoping you guys can help.  I'm having two potential issues probably caused by the same thing.  Towards the end of my batch colors are darkening, or in some cases discoloring.  It seems to happen more on darker colors and doesn't happen all the time.  I tried to attach a picture but since I'm new I can't figure it out, the only way I can describe it is the colors dull out. (Black with flake turns dingy, almost dark brown rather than staying a crisp black, and I say two potential issues because in some cases it seems like its flake bleed)  I'm thinking it has to be a heat issue but not sure where to start.  I have never used a thermometer because I haven't had this problem often, but I just bought one to play around with.  I'm still running mostly small batches of 1/2 cup, using Essential series plastisol with mostly x2 colors, I'm heating in a microwave which makes me think the multiple reheats between injections might be causing it.  Either that or I'm not up to temperature on the first heat.  Any thoughts would be appreciated as its not happening, or at least not enough to notice on all colors, and its frustrating to have the first shoot of a color come out great, only to be disappointed at the end.     

Online ctom

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Re: Heat Issues?
« Reply #1 on: 01/11/16 08:58 UTC »
First, welcome to the Do-It boards. Lots of help is found here but the welcome comes first!

You do mention having a thermometer. You need to use it. Your plastic is getting way, way too hot if you are turning black to that dingy brown. In small batches I suggest you heat the first time for 30 seconds, remove and stir then read the temp. Heat again for 30 seconds and repeat the stir, temp reading. Continue to heat, stir, read the temp at 15 second intervals until the plastic reaches the needed 350 to fully convert it. When reading the temp, keep the probe of the thermometer in the center of the plastic mass, not on a side or on the bottom of the cup. The hottest part of the plastic is in the middle of the mass and is why stirring is so important as is a broken heating process. The heat needs to be distributed throughout the plastic in the whole cup. Stirring gets this done and prevents heat from puddling in the middle.

Your Essential plastic is super heat tolerant and the most forgiving plastic you can use. The only cases of it turning I know of have been where over-heating has been at question. You can add stabilizer to your raw plastic which will afford you a little extra protection from over-heating but the best remedy is to use that thermometer.

Are you using an after-market glitter> Many of these products sold in craft store and such are not real heat tolerant and will curl or/or bleed badly when used in the plastic. If you are using glitters sold where the plastic is bought, then having them bleed is yet another indication that heat is out of control as these products are quite heat resistant.

Dig that thermometer out and put it to use.. Develop some good habits using it and your issues will get fewer.

Again....welcome aboard.
There are good ships
and wood ships
ships that sail the sea
but the best ships are friendships
and may they
always be ......An Irish Toast

Offline fisherguy84

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Re: Heat Issues?
« Reply #2 on: 01/11/16 09:18 UTC »
Thank for the welcome Ctom.  I figured that was going to be one of the first responses.  I am using high heat flake from DoIt.  Ive gotten some cheaper flake from other tackle manufacturers but tend to trust the do-it product so I didnt really think that was it.  Are you under the impression that the initial heat is too high, or the reheat temps?  I only ask that because initial color is good.  Also I guess maybe I could have asked it this way too, I figured i was getting too much heat with the reheats, but I dont know the best way to avoid that heating in a micro?  I'm reheating in small increments, 20 seconds at a time usually, and I dont have a way to really keep it at temp between shoots.  I was having less of a problem when I was pouring rather than injecting, I think because I wasn't having to reheat the excess from the injector port so many times.

Offline fisherguy84

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Re: Heat Issues?
« Reply #3 on: 01/11/16 09:27 UTC »
Sorry also meant to add this.  On initial heat I am bringing up to temperature in increments too, usually 1 min to start then 30 second heats after that.  I'm using heat stabilizer as well but maybe need to add more.

Online ctom

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Re: Heat Issues?
« Reply #4 on: 01/11/16 09:47 UTC »
If you are seeing a nice color on the initial cook, to full conversion, using your 20 second bursts it sounds as though you are on the right track. If you are seeing your issues crop up when re-heating or re-melting the plastic you'll have to begin checking things there as far as temps go. If you are simply re-heating you are probably giving the plastic too long of a cook. I reheat a lot but use very short bursts and maintain a heat much lower than what is called for in the initial cook to convert the plastic. My re-heats are only up to about 330 degrees, maybe 340. If I am going to be re-heating the same cup several times I add stabilizer right after each re-heat to help buffer the plastic. On re-melts its a good idea to chunk up the plastic instead of leaving it one big glob. Use a scissors to cut it into 1" pieces and splash just a hair of raw plastic in the cup before you heat it. Do your 20 second shots but be sure to stir it after each hit in the microwave and when it begins to melt so you are stirring some liquid add some stabilizer to it and keep up with the heating sequence of 20 seconds. I add a couple drops of stabilizer every time I stir a re-melt as a heat cushion for the plastic.

To help keep a cup of plastic warm while you work, wad up a terry cloth hand towel and make a nest in it that will hold the cup of plastic steady but down inside a nice pocket. The towel will warm and hold heat while you work. The more you keep heat in that pocket with heated cups the longer your work time will get. I made a sand bed heater out of an electric skillet that I use when I am working with multiple colors. I'll find a picture of it and post it yet this morning.

Different molds will inject specific plastic temps better than temps either warmer or colder. Colors/glitters/salt in plastic change the density of the plastic and can change what temp that specific plastic will inject in some molds. Heating to the 350 degree mark on the initial cook is imperative to get full conversion in the new plastic. Re-heating and re-melting plastic generally will take less heat to get to working temperatures so a slower approach to getting to that working temp is called for.  All of this hinges on knowing what the plastic temp is at all the way thru each process. I urge you to get accustomed to that thermometer....make it your best buddy at the injection table and your issues will soon disappear.

Most issues with the plastic are operator error. Working too fast, taking short-cuts....there are a lot of things to get in your way. You seem to have a decent handle on things but you need to start paying close attention to the temperature of your work. Use that thermometer bud!

I'll dig up a picture of that sand bed I mentioned. 
There are good ships
and wood ships
ships that sail the sea
but the best ships are friendships
and may they
always be ......An Irish Toast

Offline DF

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Re: Heat Issues?
« Reply #5 on: 01/11/16 09:49 UTC »
 Small batches are pretty easy to over heat, if you use Toms tips and watch the heat close most colors can be reheated a number of times before they turn, but even if you do everything correctly some colors just will not take many reheats.  Glitter adds to the problem, blue and purple flake give me the most fits.   The best way around it is to get more molds so you can shoot as many baits as possible on that first heat.

 

Online ctom

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Re: Heat Issues?
« Reply #6 on: 01/11/16 10:12 UTC »
And here's that sand bed I mentioned.



I got this at a garage sale for .50 cents. The sand is sugar sand that I got along side a highway cut thru a hill. This is the same silica sand used in fracting for gas and oil. The cups in the sand are either 6 or 8 ounce pyrex custard cups and work great for my small batch work. I mixed water and elmers glue together to wet the sugar sand enough to be able to mold it around the cups after I made a 1/2" bed on the entire bottom. Once the cups were in place and the sand was allowed to dry I filled each cup with cooking oil, the slowly brought the heat up to 340 degrees. When it hit 340 and stayed there for 1/2 hour I supper glued the rheostat at that setting so I wouldn't have to fart around guessing where things were at. The glue in the sand helps hold everything in place. The cups come right out and are as clean as clean can be....no sand stuck to them.

When I want to use this I simply plug the puppy in and allow it to warm up with empty cups in place. I make my plastic in the microwave in a different cup then just swap cups when the plastic is at working temp. I like to have all the holes filled with working plastic so there are times I'll have three cups of one color and one of another, or two, one and one. You get the idea. I have a sheet on aluminum, actually part of an old cookie sheet, that sets atop of the cups when I am not actively using them and yet the heat is on so heat isn't lost to the air. This get-up works great and the price was certainly right.

I'll just mention that these custard cups I use are restaurant quality pyrex. Some are 4 ounce, some 6 some 8. I maybe have 200 of these, all bought for change at garage sales, thrift stores, estate sales. They are the absolute best way to work small batches of plastic, leaving those pyrex measuring cups for bulk cooking. I have a dozen of the Pyrex measuring cups and rarely use them. I have found that for me its way easier to control heat and plastic longevity by working with smaller cups. That's just me but it works well.

DF brings up using multiple molds to get the most out of the plastic before headaches have a chance to show up.  Another course to take may be to invest in a more commercial mold...more cavities. Sometimes the cost of one mold with thirty cavities is cheaper than buying three ten cavity molds. Whatever is practical for you will work though. Once you get this little glitch worked out I suggest you pm DF and spend some time chatting with him on color and how to manipulate the art of laminating as the man is an absolute master at it.
There are good ships
and wood ships
ships that sail the sea
but the best ships are friendships
and may they
always be ......An Irish Toast

Offline fisherguy84

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Re: Heat Issues?
« Reply #7 on: 01/11/16 10:53 UTC »
Thanks a lot Ctom, now I have too much stuff to try after work tonight  :D Its funny you say that about blue and purple DF, those are the biggest colors I'm having problems with at the moment.  I've seen some of your laminate pics and they look awesome!  Have you done any laminates with the mad dad open pours?  I think I figured out the pics now, Pic on the right is the first shoot, the one on the left is 3-4 shoots in.  Not a great pic but you can tell they aren't terrible looking baits, but certainly not uniform.
« Last Edit: 01/11/16 11:01 UTC by fisherguy84 »

Online ctom

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Re: Heat Issues?
« Reply #8 on: 01/11/16 11:51 UTC »
I see the color has turned some on the bait on the left. Not bad though really. It takes some time to work thru all this so keep plugging away but keep an eye on temps and you'll be steps ahead. Nice pours. 
There are good ships
and wood ships
ships that sail the sea
but the best ships are friendships
and may they
always be ......An Irish Toast

Offline BareKnuckleJigs

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Re: Heat Issues?
« Reply #9 on: 01/11/16 13:57 UTC »
A good thermometer is One Of Your Best Friends.  When using ANY Virgin Liquid, the entire mix has to reach 350 to properly "change/cook", but remelts/scraps that have no Virgin Liquid only need to be melted thoroughly and brought up to Working Viscosity (it's not necessary to bring already-cooked scraps to 350).

Personally, I cook Virgin Liquid to 360-365 throughout, then let it cool to where I need the temp or viscosity to be...many times I'll shoot hot until the mold gets warm (only when the Cavity Design deems-it-necessary) then I'll cool it a little more.  There are Advantages to Shooting Cooler.

I cook different than most, I use an Electric Burner and a Thick-bottomed Stainless Steel Pot, not a Cup and Microwave.  I started with the Microwave, but I will never go back.

Don't let the Learning Curve get You too worked-up der 84...and Welcome to the Galley.
.El Gnaw.

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"Wash Your Hands"  BKJ
".DOMINATE."  BKJ

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Offline DF

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Re: Heat Issues?
« Reply #10 on: 01/11/16 14:45 UTC »
DF,  Have you done any laminates with the mad dad open pours? 
I do the Mad Dad open pour body in two colors but the claws are a bit thin to hand pour two colors. Here is a photo of a color that has worked well for me.
http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag468/madethesun111/SAM_0970_zpsmsmacgg6.jpg?t=1452458023 

Offline Lamar

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Re: Heat Issues?
« Reply #11 on: 01/11/16 15:45 UTC »
  DF I just walked through a ton of your pictures. Brother your a bait making stud. Your work is incredible.

Online ctom

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Re: Heat Issues?
« Reply #12 on: 01/11/16 15:56 UTC »
  DF I just walked through a ton of your pictures. Brother your a bait making stud. Your work is incredible.

I have no problem calling DF the kingpin of color.
There are good ships
and wood ships
ships that sail the sea
but the best ships are friendships
and may they
always be ......An Irish Toast

Offline BareKnuckleJigs

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Re: Heat Issues?
« Reply #13 on: 01/11/16 16:16 UTC »
Aw Yeah.  I called Roboworm last week and told them to find another line of work.
.El Gnaw.

"Drizzle Spoon ROCKS!"  Jerry V
"Wash Your Hands"  BKJ
".DOMINATE."  BKJ

https://rumble.com/v1wac7i-world-premier-died-suddenly.html 👈😎

https://youtube.com/shorts/-I9g2VLfJAk?feature=share 👈😁🇺🇸🇺🇸

Offline DF

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Re: Heat Issues?
« Reply #14 on: 01/11/16 17:49 UTC »
 :) you guys are to nice, thank you!