Author Topic: Interesting observation  (Read 2076 times)

Offline ctom

  • Lunker
  • *****
  • Posts: 11412
Interesting observation
« on: 01/17/22 17:19 UTC »
I finally landed a size 6 in the Victory ;ile up of 90 degree jig hooks. I was curious how one would look when set side by side with a #6 Lil Nasty. The Lil Nasty is on the right side. Just a wee bit of difference. Most noticeable when the hooks are laid side by side in a mold, in this case the CRJ-8-3224, the leg of the Victory hook places the eye well into the cavity for the eyes while the Lil Nasty's eye is tight to the edge of the eye cavity, tight to the ballhead side. I like the extra length of the leg from the head to the eye when painting. The over-all length of the Victory hook is longer than that of the Eagle Claw as well, again to my liking. The gap in the hook is a smidge wider too which doesn't hurt my feelings much. I think the initial angle bend at the gap is slightly more noticable in the Victory hooks too: a sharper transition than the smoother transition is the Nasty's. All told, I am liking the looks of these hooks.

I laid out ten of each of these different hooks side by side, much like the picture and without exception the Victory hooks were more consistent all around. I have had the occasion to fish Victory's #4 sickle and they are great, but the #6 is what I use the most of. These hooks will be used with the wire inserts and when I laid the wires in next to the Victory hooks they all laid in tight to the hook's shank. The Lil Nasty hooks are looser in the mold and the wires can skew a bit during casting which makes for a dud head. As always, the proof is in the puddin and what comes from the mold using these Victory hooks will render the final yea or nay. I'm thinking Yea already.

There are good ships
and wood ships
ships that sail the sea
but the best ships are friendships
and may they
always be ......An Irish Toast

Online bigjim5589

  • Kicker
  • ****
  • Posts: 443
  • J. Hester Fly & Tackle Co. LLC
Re: Interesting observation
« Reply #1 on: 01/17/22 19:03 UTC »
I think the Victory hooks compare more favorably to the Mustad version. I try not to use the EC, because of their inconsistencies and the wire is lighter. Some folks still want them, but when they give me the choice, I'll use the Mustad or Victory hooks.

I've read several complaints about Victory hooks on FB, but have not seen any problems myself. I think so far, I've got one deformed hook, and I've gotten that from Gamakatsu hooks. I've also not gotten any complaints from my customers, so that tells me more than FB posts.

Offline ctom

  • Lunker
  • *****
  • Posts: 11412
Re: Interesting observation
« Reply #2 on: 01/17/22 20:09 UTC »
What inconsistencies have you heard of? Just curious. I don't follow too much to the tackle facebook stuff.
There are good ships
and wood ships
ships that sail the sea
but the best ships are friendships
and may they
always be ......An Irish Toast

Offline bassinfool

  • Lunker
  • *****
  • Posts: 759
Re: Interesting observation
« Reply #3 on: 01/19/22 09:43 UTC »
To my eye, the victory hook turns in more toward the eye of the hook in comparison to the EC which "should" lead to better hook to land ratios.

Online bigjim5589

  • Kicker
  • ****
  • Posts: 443
  • J. Hester Fly & Tackle Co. LLC
Re: Interesting observation
« Reply #4 on: 01/19/22 21:47 UTC »
What inconsistencies have you heard of? Just curious. I don't follow too much to the tackle facebook stuff.

What I've seen with EC has been many deformed hooks. I read a lot of comments on FB but don't pay much heed to them a opinions vary anyway. I've read those types of comments about Victory, many deformed, too soft & bending easily and not strong enough and have yet to see that first hand.

EC has for a long time had QC inconsistencies, even back between '89 & 2003 when I had my first tackle business, but it seems to be worse now. All brands can have some QC problems and I don't get too upset over it, but when there's better alternatives and at similar or lower pricing, I go with the better choices and for now Mustad & Victory provide them.

Don't get me wrong, I use plenty of EC hooks, just not the sickle if I can help it. Some of my customers have asked me not to send them jigs with the EC sickles, so what does that tell you?

Offline ctom

  • Lunker
  • *****
  • Posts: 11412
Re: Interesting observation
« Reply #5 on: 01/19/22 22:10 UTC »
Up here I see more interest in the EC sickles with some wanting nothing but them. Weird.

There are good ships
and wood ships
ships that sail the sea
but the best ships are friendships
and may they
always be ......An Irish Toast

Offline alyansangpn

  • Minnow
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Re: Interesting observation
« Reply #6 on: 01/20/22 09:58 UTC »
EC has for a long time had QC inconsistencies, even back between '89 & 2003 when I had my first tackle business, but it seems to be worse now. All brands can have some QC problems and I don't get too upset over it, but when there's better alternatives and at similar or lower pricing, I go with the better choices and for now Mustad & Victory provide them.

Online bigjim5589

  • Kicker
  • ****
  • Posts: 443
  • J. Hester Fly & Tackle Co. LLC
Re: Interesting observation
« Reply #7 on: 01/20/22 13:19 UTC »
EC has for a long time had QC inconsistencies, even back between '89 & 2003 when I had my first tackle business, but it seems to be worse now. All brands can have some QC problems and I don't get too upset over it, but when there's better alternatives and at similar or lower pricing, I go with the better choices and for now Mustad & Victory provide them.

I think I said that!  ::)

Offline ctom

  • Lunker
  • *****
  • Posts: 11412
Re: Interesting observation
« Reply #8 on: 01/20/22 13:34 UTC »
I think the worst sickle hooks I used were Matzuo. I loved the design of the hooks initially but man, the shoddy QC. Either the leg length was too long or the barb was completely missing or the eye of the hook was closed to the point of being oblong or the eyes were not closed enough. In a box of a thousand, easily 150 had to be tossed and one had to go thru the entire box to eliminate the junkers before he dared casting. EC's seem like a decent hook but I find that the wire doesn't possess much consistent temper and they'll straighten quite easily or snap off if given a decent tug when snagged.

The few Victories I have cast and fished [size 4 in the Aberdeen style] have been easy to cast and are tough enough for my style of fishing. I'll be casting a few of the #6 sickles this afternoon: Why I don't know as we haven't been above zero all day and the only open water around here is on the internet.
There are good ships
and wood ships
ships that sail the sea
but the best ships are friendships
and may they
always be ......An Irish Toast

Online bigjim5589

  • Kicker
  • ****
  • Posts: 443
  • J. Hester Fly & Tackle Co. LLC
Re: Interesting observation
« Reply #9 on: 01/20/22 14:03 UTC »
Quote
I think the worst sickle hooks I used were Matzuo. I loved the design of the hooks initially but man, the shoddy QC. Either the leg length was too long or the barb was completely missing or the eye of the hook was closed to the point of being oblong or the eyes were not closed enough. In a box of a thousand, easily 150 had to be tossed and one had to go thru the entire box to eliminate the junkers before he dared casting. EC's seem like a decent hook but I find that the wire doesn't possess much consistent temper and they'll straighten quite easily or snap off if given a decent tug when snagged.

The few Victories I have cast and fished [size 4 in the Aberdeen style] have been easy to cast and are tough enough for my style of fishing. I'll be casting a few of the #6 sickles this afternoon: Why I don't know as we haven't been above zero all day and the only open water around here is on the internet.

I used the Matzuo hooks and also saw some issues with them, but still not as many as with EC.  It's not that any of them made bad hooks, there was just too many bad hooks in a package sometimes. I still have some Matzuo hooks, and also the EC sickles. I recall getting some Matzuo O'Shaughnessy hooks that had a very sharp spot at the hook eyes, and they would cause line breaks. It was how the hooks had been formed, and if I spent the time filing them, they could be used, but was a pain to do it. I had bought them to use for tying some flies, and instead used them for making spinnerbaits, which worked fine since it buried that sharp spot in the lead. Otherwise, they were decent hooks and when I did get some that didn't have that sharp edge issue, they worked great for some flies I tied. 

I've been sorting through my supplies and have some Matzuo sickle baitholder hooks that they sold with wire weed guards. I've used them for tying bass flies and they actually work great. I bought a bunch of them several years ago, and cheap, because folks had some issue with them. I try to look at what I can use them for and work around the issue when it's possible, instead of condemning the brand.

I got into a heated "discussion" with another fellow, who also ties flies commercially when he called all brands except what he uses "junk". He's on the "pro staff" of the hook company, and, to me it's not a fair or true statement that everything else is junk. He's entitled to his opinion, but it does a disservice to make such a statement, particularly to folks who are looking for a good balance of use & cost, and the hooks that guy is pimping are expensive. It also makes the rest of us look like we don't know what we're doing and I resent that! I've been doing this longer than that guy has been alive and we used a lot of different hooks before his brand was even thought of. I don't get many customer complaints!

I very much like the EC 253 & 254 styles of hooks, as I've used them for a lot of years to tie flies, and still will use them. They're not high tech, but they are strong. I think a lot of folks now have become spoiled with what's on the market, and what we used years ago as normal, they now consider as junk. To me that's a shame, but it's how people are and it's not true.

To my eye, the victory hook turns in more toward the eye of the hook in comparison to the EC which "should" lead to better hook to land ratios.

I like the Victory hooks, but frankly, if a hook is sticky sharp, and use a proper rod & line and set your reel drag properly, it doesn't matter a whole lot about the hook style that you use. I still use the round bends hooks, old styles that need to be sharpened and "better" types that are chemically sharpened, and still catch fish with them all. I think some folks put way too much stock in single parts of fishing, like the hook, when it's all got to work together and that includes the person holding the rod.

Where I live, near Lake Marion, (Santee Cooper) some folks will fish along the causeway for the road out here from town where it crosses a part of the lake. I'll sometimes stop & chat with them. I fish there too, but these will be ladies, kids and sometimes older fellows, and they're primarily fishing with floats & baits & I like to fish with lures. I stopped one day & watched this older lady killing them, using a long bream pole, and old style Aberdeen hook, and crickets. She knew exactly when to set the hook and she missed very few hook sets. There was a young guy next to her with spinning gear and he couldn't buy a hook set. The difference was I think that lady paid attention and the young fellow thought his gear made him a better angler. I had to chuckle about that lady, as she was bringing in fish on almost every cast and all the young guy was doing was complaining about his gear!   ;D

Offline ctom

  • Lunker
  • *****
  • Posts: 11412
Re: Interesting observation
« Reply #10 on: 01/20/22 15:01 UTC »

but frankly, if a hook is sticky sharp, and use a proper rod & line and set your reel drag properly, it doesn't matter a whole lot about the hook style that you use.... I think some folks put way too much stock in single parts of fishing, like the hook, when it's all got to work together and that includes the person holding the rod.



100% agree
There are good ships
and wood ships
ships that sail the sea
but the best ships are friendships
and may they
always be ......An Irish Toast

Offline Canga~

  • Kicker
  • ****
  • Posts: 114
Re: Interesting observation
« Reply #11 on: 01/20/22 19:47 UTC »
I think the worst sickle hooks I used were Matzuo. I loved the design of the hooks initially but man, the shoddy QC. Either the leg length was too long or the barb was completely missing or the eye of the hook was closed to the point of being oblong or the eyes were not closed enough. In a box of a thousand, easily 150 had to be tossed and one had to go thru the entire box to eliminate the junkers before he dared casting. EC's seem like a decent hook but I find that the wire doesn't possess much consistent temper and they'll straighten quite easily or snap off if given a decent tug when snagged.

The few Victories I have cast and fished [size 4 in the Aberdeen style] have been easy to cast and are tough enough for my style of fishing. I'll be casting a few of the #6 sickles this afternoon: Why I don't know as we haven't been above zero all day and the only open water around here is on the internet.

i have had the exact opposite experience with matzuo, gone through easily 5000+ and maybe had to throw 10 out (imo a decent enough fail rate!). the victory hooks seem ok, the first 100 i tried had about 10% throw outs, but i currently have 3000 in 3 different sizes and havent noticed any throw outs on them yet. i will NOT use anything EC, not only hearing about alot of garbage hooks but the points on them (at lease the lil nasty) turn me completely away from them.

i like the price on the victory hooks, so im hoping the on the water use is as good as the workshop use! when matzuo went out of business i was looking for a suitable replacement that didnt break the bank and it seems like victory is the answer, hopefully it stays that way! i would hate to have to spend over $1 a hook on the gamakatsu model of sickles!

Offline ctom

  • Lunker
  • *****
  • Posts: 11412
Re: Interesting observation
« Reply #12 on: 01/25/22 11:26 UTC »


Here's a better comparison of the Lil Nastys, on the left side and the Victory hooks on the center and right. The ones on the right are #6 Aberdeen while the #6 Sickle sits in the center. All are cast with keepers in 1/16 heads.

Notice the Lil Nasty hooks have only the points that curl upward, while the whole point portion of the Victory Sickle hooks has a slight upward sweep to it, not just the tip. If there's a difference in wire diameter it is slight. Also notice that the leg height from the shank to the tie eye is longer in the Victory hooks than that found on the Lil Nastys....I'm a huge fan of that aspect.

I trim the keeper's barb back about 50% too since I use a lot of fairly thin bodied plastics with jigs of this size and smaller.

I was able to dunk the Aberdeen heads shown last fall while we still had a decent bite going and they did very nicely on Crappies. I was maybe a bit concerned that the less aggressive barb on the Victory hooks would create more fall-offs but that didn't happen, even on 14 inch crappies.

Not related to the hooks, I bought some purple candy automotive powder paint along with an equal amount of clear. I mixed 2 ounces of each and added a healthy dose of blue micro glitter plus a bit of blue hi lite powder. The Do-It candy purple is on the left side heads while the Victories are all done with the new product. The lighting and camera filter sort of mute the new stuff but it's a beautiful purple. This is about the only color of head I use for Crappies and Panfish with plain old lead being the second best.
There are good ships
and wood ships
ships that sail the sea
but the best ships are friendships
and may they
always be ......An Irish Toast

Offline Fatman

  • Lunker
  • *****
  • Posts: 1518
Re: Interesting observation
« Reply #13 on: 01/25/22 17:45 UTC »
Great write up - I haven't gotten my samples yet.