Getting Frustrated... Need all the help I can get...

[Cormorant Lures]

It seems no matter what mold I am injecting, I am getting air bubble voids, incomplete injections, dents, dings, etc... I have tried hotter plastic, colder plastic, more pressure, less pressure, different types of plastic, YOU NAME IT I'VE TRIED IT!!! I am getting so sick and tired of opening up my molds and seeing a bait with bursted air bubbles all over the place, or opening up my molds and seeing that the feet of my frogs are hollow, half missing, have bursted air bubbles, or the claws of my craws are completely dented... Something is just not right!!! I have watch 20 or so videos on youtube, this forum, and other forums and have not seen anyone talk about all the major issues I am having... The videos make it look so easy... I have been injecting for months now and it seems I can NEVER get a break... It's just issue after issue...



I want nice looking baits, I want baits that fishermen can look at and smile, I want baits like the ones you see on the shelves everyday... Not baits with dings, hollow feet, bursted air bubbles, dented craws, etc... I swear I still believe it is the injectors, if I had another one to compare them to, then at least I could rule them out or call them out as my problem... I have a VERY HARD time believing that it is my process of doing things... TRUST ME, with all the experimenting I have done, if I had found something that worked right almost 100% of the time, I would keep doing it!!! I am sorry for venting but I need to get this figured out... I am going to have tackle shops, stores, and Joe Fishermen calling me in the next few weeks and I feel as though I am stranded...



I am at the point to ask and see if anyone has another injector I can borrow to test my theory?!? If not, I am willing to take all the advice I can get at this point... If I am wrong in saying that I am the only one who is having all these major issues, PLEASE let me know... I cannot even fathom that to many of you are having all sorts of the same problems as me, because if you did, you probably would have quit a long time ago... Problems like this would turn anyone's small plastics business into a complete disaster unless they are dealt with properly...



Again, I am sorry for venting, but I need some desperate relief!!! PLEASE HELP!!! THANKS!!!

[BassDetective]

I feel for ya.  I was there a month ago - at my wits end.  What I have found is there is not one single solution.  Sometimes it is the plastic temp and other times it was air in the plastic.  I found that "burping" the injector really helped me personally.  Dents almost always were caused by plastic cooling too quickly.  The hardness or softness of the plastic seems to matter most in combo with temp

[pjmcla]

Try this.  Have your injector injector completely empty.  Move the plunger all the way up to the nozzle  Stick a finger over the nozzle's hole and try to pull the plunger back.  If it pulls without a good bit of resistance; you have lost your seal.  You need to replace the O rings.  If there is good resistance; then your injector is sealing OK.
Incomplete baits are often caused by too cool a plastic.  is there a large plug of plastic in the injector when you inject the molds that are incomplete?  Or do you run out of fairly runny plastic and can't top off the mold's sprue  after holding the injector to the mold with slight pressure for a bit?
   

[Justin9j]

my dents allows seems to come from to hot of plastic.   Air seems like it comes from my injector most of the time I think.   

Shoot it with just clear plastic and post the pics.  Jason and the rest of the gang will help you out Iam sure of it.   

[superharmonix]

Cormorant- I have seen a lot of your posts both here and elsewhere, and I know how much research you have been doing on these issues and the frustration that goes along with it so I won't add anything as far research goes, but I will say this from experience- the molds (no matter what mold maker's) all have a uniqueness about them.  It looks to me you may be doing what I tend to do which is try to boil the whole ocean at once instead of one small amount at a time.  I also know you have poured from pots only for quite some time and recently are moving into injection which is not better, just different and its always tough to go from being a master of your craft to an apprentice in the back 40.
 
My advice and what helped me:
I know you've tried lots of different plastics as have I so you know the process involved in "learning the plastic".  Take that mentality and apply it to the molds.  Go one mold at a time with some scrap plastic and inject over and over while taking detailed notes on the whole process. (what is the plastic temp, the mold temp, the air temp in your shop,  are you injecting fast or slow, holding pressure or not, etc.)  Then take all the notes and discern the "goods" vs. the "bads"
This is basically how I did it and although it took some time, I am THRILLED with the results and I KNOW all my molds whether they are Jason's creations, or the others.  At one point, I too had holes in the frog feet, bubbles in the plastic, etc.  But i do not anymore (except when I get careless or hasty and try and go back to boiling that ocean again).

If you try to break down your stuff one mold at a time like this I am confident you will start finding answers, and you'll get lots of hope from others as well.  I for one am here to offer any help I can to help you get out of that frustration and back to the love of what you do.

-Shawn
 

[ghostbaits]

I can feel your frustration in your words! Stinks having things working against you vs for you!

I like Shawn's idea of going mold by mold. I would use fresh plastic vs scrap as you may introduce other variables with scrap plastic, especially the chance of overheating. You may have already done this step though.

Shoot each mold and post the pictures up here or send them to Jason with the details on plastic temp, injector type, additives, etc.

If you really think it is the injector, get another one. I have a 4oz Delmart one I will send you for trial use as long as you need it. Del made his a little to close to "fitting like a glove" so you can barely pull the dang thing back until real warm but you can be sure no air gets in. PM me your address and I'll send it out to you.

If I still had pictures from when I started hand pouring I would post them up to boost you up! WOW was I bad!!!!!!! Still learning and I learn from these discussions a lot. Just hate that somebody has to have a problem to learn.

Hang in there bud! (I am serious on the injector. Will send it out tomorrow!)

Jim

[firetiger]

Hang in there and you'll get it.

I have found what others have already talked about.  Each mold is a little different.  Some I had to shoot a little faster than others, some a little slower, some I need to warm-up a little longer than others, etc.  They each seem to have a different temperament.

Take good notes and pictures and I'm sure someone on here will solve the problem.

[Jason]

I would reach out to the mold makers.

I can help you with the 3.5" Croakers. They should be an easy injection for you.

I'll do my best to help you with the other molds you have, but my knowledge of the other mfgs will be limited to basic concepts.

I would also be willing to loan you an injector we make to test it against what you currently use.

If there's a good time to talk next week let me know.

Jason

[Dave]

I was having the same issues at first.  As I continued with the frustrations of it I realized that it was me rushing that was creating all my headaches.  First of all relax and know that when you're slowly pushing that injector down, your creating a fantastic bait. Second, frustration is our biggest enemy! You sound just like I did at first, so that tells me your determined, you have a high expectation of your self and are very determined to provide people with a quality product and service. 

Partner here's the cold hard truth! You sound like your the type that can be shown one time and you've got it? But having nobody there to show you has left everything up to you to learn on your own and that has become very frustrating. Video's are expected to provide the tips and hints needed, but they're limited on the amount of video's created by people.  Now you've got many people telling you what you need to do as if we have all the answers, but we don't.  Babe Ruth once said "it's hard to beat a person who never gives up" and I strongly believe that if you continue to practice and not give up, you will eventually get it. Take the basic principles of it and find your way brother, that's what makes yours unique! Just like some of these guys who have really got things figured out. Jason, CTOM and Jim from GB these are the type of guys who've got this crap down to a science. Hang in there and don't let the obstacles prevent you from figuring this out! Good Luck....

[Cormorant Lures]

Alright so here's the deal... I am using Lureworks Medium/Soft Pourasol... I use two of Bear's Presto Pots with stirring paddles... I am using two 6oz. injectors (Twinjector) from Bass Tackle... I do NOT use oil in my molds... All my other products: glitter, color, softener, stabilizer, etc. are from Lurecraft...



The more and more I think about it, I believe (nope wrong word) I KNOW that I have MAJOR microbubble issues... I now do recall seeing them in my plastic while it's heated... How the heck do you get rid of them?!? I do NOT believe however that microbubbles are the main cause for my feet issues in my frogs... I DO believe that microbubbles however are the main issue for all the bursted bubbles I get on the rest of my baits... The "hollow" or "half-missing" feet in my frogs also happened when using Calhoun's plastic and possibly when using Caney Creek's plastic...



When I first started injecting, I only had THREE single cavity frog molds... From the start, I injected one at a time and have always had issues with the d*mn feet on the frogs... One day I changed the o-ring, put a little plumbers tape underneath it and BAM, it was gone!!! All my hollow feet problems disappeared on my frogs... I think I poured almost 6 total batches of frogs without ONE BAD FOOT!!! I have had to change the o-ring since it got dinged up from the locking pin slot... Now I cannot get it to pour a good frog again to save my life... I tried BOTH injectors this morning and neither one could get the job done... Bursted bubbles all over the frog bodies and hollow and half-missing feet all over the place...



I have never had problems with missing claws, legs, wings and/or tails on my brush hogs and craws... Just bursted microbubbles on the bodies of each and dents in the claws of my craws... The dents in my craw claws piss me off too!!! Nothing but a headache... Sometimes I wish I would have just bought (2) cavity craw molds instead of the (4) cavity molds... Maybe the dents in my craw claws are a venting issue?!? It sucks everytime I open up one of the craw molds, I know to expect that at least one of them are going to have a dented claw... To me, it's unacceptable...



As far as the orders I am worried about, I am talking about all the bait and tackle shops I have been visiting lately and all the local tournament fishermen that are interested in my stuff... I have them all lined up and a good majority of them are going to be calling me around May 1st looking for product... I am trying to get ahead a little on inventory to lessen the initial blow from all of them calling around the same time... It's just that when my plastic, equipment and/or processes are beginning to fail me, I am getting worried!!! I want to be able to produce NICE LOOKING baits ALL THE TIME!!! I should have no problem achieving this goal, but for some reason my plastic microbubbles like an S.O.B. and I think my injectors are on the fritz!!! BTW, one of the injector nozzles seems way more "snug" than the other... I dunno...



Thank you for all the replys!!! At least I know you guys won't leave me hangin'!!!

[Cormorant Lures]

Hey Jason, I'll probably give you a call next week if I don't already have the frog issues figured out by then... Anything you can do to help me out would be just AWESOME!!!

and Jim, I might have to take you up on your offer with the Delmart injector... But first, I have some good ideas on how to make my current injectors work properly... Only thing is I will need to do the work at my day job... It'll probably have to wait until Monday... I'll keep you informed on my situation as well...

Thank you to the both of you and EVERYBODY that has chimed in and given me words of encouragement!!! I deeply appreciate it!!!

[BareKnuckleJigs]

Microbubbles are usually moisture...as I've read on the Forum a few times, and had suggested to me by a few Members, nuke Your cup for about 30-45 seconds before You put plastic in it.  This helps.  The larger bubbles...if You're getting the bigger bubbles with remelts, air may be left in the mix from pockets between the Plastic Chunks that were cut/chopped up to be remelted...or if it's new plastic, it may be possible You whipped air into the mix(?).

It may be Your injector not sealing right, as has been mentioned.

When I get the bigger air bubbles, especially with remelts, once I get the plastic upto temperature/viscosity, I let it set still, not stirring, not drawing into an injector...I'm giving the bubbles time to come to the surface.  Add a little Heat Stabilizer for this.  I may lightly reheat 2-3+ times, using my stirrer to "move the bubbles out of my way" on the top of the melted plastic, until I see bubble-less plastic...time to shoot.

(This is On Me since I started typing)...Then I stick the tip of the injector in, kind of deep, and draw slowly so I don't suck air down into the plastic...and keep slowly lowering Your injector as You draw, keeping more "distance/length" between the Injector Tip and the top of the Plastic Melt.  Watch the top of the plastic...You can suck air into it with the force of Your injector, and as SOON as You do, that air will be in Your injector.

Then inject pretty slow...if Your mold cavities have alot of details, not smooth like a Carrot, shoot slow.

[BassDetective]

I was using another injector from another company beside CC and I too replaced the o-ring.  Still have more issues with that injector.  I use the CC injector exclusively.  I have three nozzles so I inject 8-10 oz of plastic really quick before it cools.  This injector has not eliminated all my issues but has definitely increased my success rate.  Also, I use CC plastic exclusively and that has helped reduce more issues.  This is not meant to be a commercial just stating my personal experiences.  I really think the products that CC offers are more forgiving for the inexperienced (like me) and that may help others as well.  For the veterans, it probably doesn't matter as much but for us new guys I know it helped me.

[Cormorant Lures]

So far today I have found that by keeping the o-rings and injector well lubricated it seems to be helping... No hollow or half-missing feet in my frogs today so that's a plus... Still having MAJOR microbubble issues... I am pouring out of my basement... I am pretty sure, if not almost 100% sure I am greatly attributing towards my microbubble issues...

All the previous plastics I have purchased have either already been placed in a sealed container or have been transferred to one by me... With the Lureworks Plastisol however, I have read all the so-called HORROR stories about hard-packing... So I have been keeping it in a 5-gallon bucket mostly with the lid just sitting on the top and NOT SEALED... I can imagine I have been inducing moisture into the plastic by storing it this way... I would really like to transfer it to a container with a pouring spout, but I am kind of at odds with how I would stir it... I have a paint mixer that attaches to my power drill, but it will not fit in the opening... I have read on one of my previous posts about other homeade stirring units, just not sure what to use and how often you truly need to stir the stuff...

I am beginning to shy away from the fact that I first believed my injectors were on the fritz... Lubricating them after 5 shots or so had helped out tremendously... They still might be a contributing factor and have not been completely ruled out... But I now know that microbubbles are an issue I need to address first... Once the microbubble issues are taken care of, if there are other problems that remain or manifest I will know that it is NOT microbubbles that are the cause... 

[ctom]

I get some micro bubbles when I do the intitial cook on new plastic IF I use my 1100 watts nuke oven on the HIGH setting. Try backing down the cooking power just a hair, say to 80%, and then cooking a bit longer. Another thing I have done when the plastic gets loaded with the micros is to just let it sit for a couple minutes and then give it a stir and a short re-heat to the shooting temp. The second time around I am generally bubble-free.

Are you cleaning your cooking vessels after each color? I'm not talking about wiping them out. I mean putting them in the sink and washing them with dish soap. Every little speck of whatever that is in your cup when you start with new plastic will create a bubble-line during the heating. Its not only water or moisture that creates bubbles. All of the little specks and whatnot contain a small amount of air that gets released when your plastic gets heated up. I know it takes time, but wash those cups and bowls between each use, and dry them with a good, quality dish towel to minimize the lint that comes from both paper towels and terry towels. When they are free of water, set them in the micro wave empty for ten seconds on HIGH to purge any traces of water, then store them open end down on a clean towel until they are ready for plastic.

You can do a quick injector check by putting your thumb over the nozzel and then try to pull air. If you can, try lubing the o-rings and doing this test again and if the air can still be pulled in swap out the 0-rings and be sure to put hi temp plumbers tape in the grooves before sliding the new ring in place and then lube those new rings well.

You don't mention how large each batch has been. If you are doing a short batch and squirting frogs you may be getting the nozzle too close to the bottom of the cup and sucking air that way. I'd suggest doing one cup batches, shooting a few frogs and then use the remainder as a plastic to pour an open mold....I think you mentioned having one or two of those.

Another suggestion not to give up would be followed up by saying slow down and watch what you are doing.  Often times what you may think is right may be the cause of a small problem that can plaque you.

Hope this helps you out.